New Design for a 17' Daysailer/Racer

The thing you are missing is the money grab aspect. This individual is trying to patent an idea for folding wings on a canting keel. He has delusions about making a financial killing somewhere down the road. He's heard about the fees charged by the CBTF guys, has heard a rumour that Andy Dovell has applied for a patent on his canting keel with foil, and is trying to get people to think his idea is viable so he can collect royalties as well. If you were to post about Optomists this guy would jump in and say it needs his system or it isn't viable.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=24420#post24420

There are a couple of BIG problems with the system pictured in the jpegs and described here and in his message. That's possibly why he received no responses from the designers he contacted. Maybe if he PAYS ME a large sum I'll tell him what they are. It is also possible he didn't receive any responses for the same reason I never responded to the guy about the "Bullet Arc" hull design.

In the meantime let's all agree that EVERY BOAT (except foilers) will be better with his system. If we stipulate to it now, will he agree to never mention it again?

 

kFOIL™ / fixed wings

In the tests so far the kFOIL™ has proved that it works perfectly. Andy Dovells fixed wings have been proven 100% . Either system opens up new applications for canting keels.
Oh, and since I invented it, I think the kFOIL™ is a superior alternative to fixed wings.
On larger boats I think CBTF is without a doubt the premier lateral resistance solution for canting keel race boats where upwind work is at a premium since it allows collective control of the twin foils.
But on boats under 20' either retractable or fixed wings are the way to go because the whole system is so simplified.
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I was going to let Paul B's absurd "money grab"
comments go but I can't resist pointing out how uninformed and simplistic his approach to new ideas is.
You simply can't expect to make a lot of money on any patent right off the bat. It took CBTFco over 8 years of testing and allowing people to use their system for free to reach the stage where the system generates some money. When Hoyle Sweitzer first patented the Windsurfer it was ripped off by several companies and it took him almost 10 years and millions of dollars to defend his patent. Anybody expecting a sudden windfall with a patent in the sailboat industry is not living in reality.The hope is that one can overcome adversity including those that critisize without knowing what they are talking about ,do the testing and prove the concept. Then after some years of development some money might be available to put into the patent defense fund and after even more years some money might be available to pay for the original testing.
There are always naysayers and nut cases around when any new technology is brought into the public eye- but you just ignore it, do the testing and prove the concept. That's what I'm doing now with the kFOIL ,that's what CBTFco did for years and that's what Andy Dovell is doing with his fixed wing canting keel concept.

 

Here's nearly 6 feet on sort of a scaled down K6 type. Looks too deep to me. What do you think?

I've also included a stock "man" to help show the scale of the whole project. When working on these smaller boats you can lose the scale of the whole thing when looking at non-populated models.

It's easy to forget that at 17 feet we're talking about something not that much bigger than most two handed dinghys.

Maybe it needs a bit more freeboard. It also needs more attention to the cuddy, which is now only a 2 minute, one sketch and one point loft. Better quick 'n dirty than nothing?

Speaking of nothing, I wonder when we'll see photos of the "testing" being done on the "pie-in-the-sky Foil (TM)". Not to mention the 18 footer that's being developed. You would think that would have been the first thing shown when Cleve asked his question, if it was actually viable.

 

P-17(™™)

Defintely needs more freeboard ,and more beam with carbon and fabric racks(seats) with the outboard edge turned up about 6". The aft end of the cuddy needs to be moved forward and/or the fin moved aft so that the keel won't retract thru the cuddy and to allow the canting keel to be aft of the cuddy area. A spinnaker trough(just ahead of the forestay) needs to be incorporated into the front deck with a retracting pole to the side similar to a Melges.A variation using the Hoyt boom concept as applied to an asy spinnaker pole(upside down "L" inserted into bushing at the very bow) could allow the pole to swing to each side and stow folded aft along the hull(more complicated but more effective).
Draft is fine but the bulb needs to be just slightly aft of center on the fin to make the kFOIL installation simpler.Don't forget that draft could be adjusted down to 4' for shallower water.The drawing would be improved also by showing the keel canted with the wings deployed....A rudder with Bieker foil should probably be added.
Needs a little work but you're making progress......

 

This is my take on what you've got if I were at that point...

Yes Freeboard does look low, 6feet keel is probably too much. (Does he sail in deep water???) Mabe limit the total draft to 6' (5'keel plus hull and bulb)

I would look at dropping the cuddy cabin altogether, mover that bhd forward and just camber the deck to getr the water off it. By doing this the centreboard would go through the cockpit floor and the crew could be moved further forward to better trim the boat as required. Also allows another person on board when the wind gets up.

I don't know what beam you have there but I would look to trailable limits. Keep the waterline narrow though.

Brett

 

Freeboard was maybe too dinghy-ish. I've added a bit to get it closer to the "sportboat" end.

The old version had a total draft of 5.75 feet. Latest iteration is now at 5.0 feet (pic with the "sailor's" back to you). I think that is more than enough for this type.

I think something like this should have some sort of small raised cuddy, otherwise it reall would be too dinghy-like. You need someplace to store stuff in a sportboat. My 28 footer (pictured) has low freeboard and a flush deck, and there's is nowhere to store anything in that sized boat let alone a 17 footer. It does need to be moved forward a couple of feet, and the shape isn't what it would be in a refined design.

The beam shown is at 5 feet. Cleve mentioned he liked the look of the K6, so I was trying to mirror that. I think deck wings to the legal limit would look OK, similar to the blue loft picture. If it was just a study for me I would go that route.

I'm not doing any more on this model. It is going nowhere. I have a lot to do over the next two weeks, and am racing the next four weekends. The initial request pretty much died and the thread now only exists so the resident "canting/foiling" expert can pontificate about something he really knows nothing about (having never seen or sailed on a canting boat).

If I'm wrong he'll be posting his version of the boat, with solutions to all the problems he's been ignoring. Maybe he'll post something on the mythical 18 footer he has claimed is being developed. That would pretty much solve Cleve's problem, right?

Anyone can say, "The technology exists to make hover cars." It's another thing entirely to make it work in the real world. You would think the expert would know that after his abject failure in his foiling project.

 

P-17(™™)

Giving up so quickly?! Perhaps Sail Designs's words will comfort you: 12/17/03:"Paul B,I think you would have less trouble with people if you learned to reply tactfully rather than like the playground bully". I would have used stronger language.
Paul b., 'Its almost 2005. Please do a little research into whats happening in the modern world before you post more nonsense.'
To charaterise my foiler as an "abject failure" is flat out wrong and just goes to show that you will say anything as long as you can hide behind the anonymity of "Paul B"-you'll say anything without regard to the facts as long as it fits your modus operandi of personal attack,inuendo and outright falsehoods. Why don't you get counseling to learn how to participate in discussions of things you don't understand. I'm sure someone out there could help you.
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Back to the boat- There is no doubt that a canting keel on this boat will cost more than a fixed keel(see previous estimate). There is also no doubt that the canting keel will provide a significant amount of power to carry sail as compared to a fixed keel on a two person boat in the 17-18' range.Combined with max width "racks with backs" fairly narrow hull and light construction extraordinary performance for a keelboat is possible. It deserves to be discussed and investigated because of the tremendous potential in making a comfortable ,easy to sail and very fast double hander.

 

I would have, too, but I didn't want to sound like Paul B...
Until Paul is willing to reveal his name, and the names of these mythical high-profile designers he's worked for (as well as his position in the office - maintenance?) he should stop behaving like a spoilt brat.
Opinions?

Steve

 

Just a doubt that's whirling in my head:
this boat is predicted to be a very sporty one: huge amount of sails, great speed and acceleration. Great boat, really amusing!!!! I'd love to take a ride on her!!!!
In a such sporty "sailing-Ferrari" will seat two very sporty person who doesn't like to hang out on the trapezes.......
mmmm....... seems to me that there's something strange in this way of thinking.........
In my experience, people who fears to use trapezes fears much more a very sporty boat with great speed, adrenalinic reactions and a lot of square meters of sails to manage.
so what's the real target of this project?????
I mean : who 's the ideal user of this boat???

fair wind
Mistral

 

Target Market

My opinion is that the target market here would be couples of any age but particularly mid twenties and up.
This boat(canting keel version) allows relatively high performance with a crew of just two but with reserve capacity to take another couple out for a daysail.Everything would be set up for ease of handling: selftacking jib, asy spin with trough on deck forward of the forestay, electrically controlled canting keel.
For those who are not as young and limber as they once were or who don't want to sail with a big crew or who like the advantages of a keelboat without the performance handicap of a fixed keel this boat would provide exciting fast sailing in an easy to handle shorthanded package.

 

Ok her's my take...

keep the boat profile low and beam narrow to save weight and keep wetted surface low.
add a large bowsprit and ***. spinnaker.
add wide wings and trapezes.
No canting keel - too much hassle. Use the KISS rule.
Two people really isn't enough to get this thing going anyway. So let's add a third and drop all that ballast from the keel. No need to make it stable at rest anyway - the crew can balance it easily with their body weight.

One more thing - add another foot to the bow to make it really nice and pointy.

And there you have it - the new generation sports boat that will leave all others in its wake.


Hang on - It's been done before.........

Brett
http://hem.passagen.se/waterat/pix/18ft.jpg

 

P17(™™)

If you eliminate any attempt to provide what the "customer" originally wanted he may not be happy. So since the canting keel provides the RM of the third person and still gives the advantages of a keel boat why would you want to do that?
The canting solution at this length using fixed wings or retractable wings is a new idea but it has many things going for it as described earlier. Not only that it meets the "customers" requirements fairly closely...

 

Time to show the world your drawings Doug!

Cheers
Brett

 

P 17

I haven't designed a boat to these specs but I might since I think it will be a lot of fun.I may do this instead of my singlehanded canting keelboat.
There are some others working on a boat close to this but they may or may not post-we'll see.
If Cleve is interested in pursuing a boat along these lines I can put him in touch with experienced canting keel designers.

 

Doug I think you missed my and I thought you were an experienced canting keel dsigner.......