New Battery

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by rasorinc, Nov 15, 2014.

  1. BertKu
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Folks, I am serious. how difficult would it be to make a http://enipedia.tudelft.nl/wiki/Saltwater_(sodium-ion)_batteries#Technology and http://enipedia.tudelft.nl/wiki/DrTen_Saltwater_battery
    type of battery, sufficient to build up a power plant. No, not on a yacht, the technology is not suitable due to the high weight. But how difficult would it really be. Seawater, we have enough here around the corner. Salt water is also easy to produce. Sodium is also not too difficult to get hold off. What kind of anode and cathode do we have to create. For the plastic casing, one can make a plan.
    What I particular like about this type of battery, the 6000 to 7000 cycles it can take. Also the oil industry is not able to block the price. Copyright? Not a problem if one make it for themselves. The copyright and patent right is not applicable. Well, that is what I understood, when I took some patents and provisional patents out. Groper, what do you think what we need for the cathode and the anode.
    Bert
     
  2. BertKu
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Gonzo, you mentioned that you had dealings with a lab. What do you think my countryman in Holland are using as cathode and anode for the Saltwater/Sodium ion battery?
     
  3. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Bert,there should be an alternative energy/off-the-grid/permaculture forum or website around.

    Two seconds looking and I found this site http://www.nutsvolts.com/ may be interesting.
     
  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

  5. BertKu
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Well I had a crash course from my wife, although not a practical chemist, she has her Msc in Bi-Chemistry and was always involved in the food industry. So, If I have understood her correctly, we take seawater we add salt (table salt). The NaCl is all over the place. We have to have 2 electrodes. I will start with red copper, I charge this basic battery on my variable 20 Ampere/up to 40 Volt DC (I must have made that thing some 35 years ago and it has never given up working), starting with a low Amps and Voltage and the + will be Na and the Cl will go the minus. Now comes the tricky part. How high will the voltage be after I take the charger away and for how long will my "BATTERY" gives me some energy back. I understood, I must pump 115% more to get 100% out. That is according to Dr Ten.
    Wish me good luck. Bert
     
  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Make sure you ventilate the chlorine gas. It will kill you.
     
  7. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Yes thanks, I am aware of that. But the storage of such battery will be outside in anyway. I wonder how the Dutch TU has manufactured those batteries, what kind of ventilation they have used.
    Bert.
     
  8. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Also, the vent has to be resistant to chlorine which is very corrosive. I suppose there are enough plastics that would work.
     
  9. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Sorry Bert, I've been out fishing all day.... Starting to enjoy the perks of boat ownership instead of slaving my *** off building the damn things...

    When you mentioned saltwater batteries, I remembered reading about them from another thread started here. Otherwise known as sodium ion batteries... Check this out for ideas, they show their general construction and cathode and anode materials... The trick is in the finer details tho, I doubt it's simple to produce a battery with good performance without some pretty in depth research knowledge - http://www.aquionenergy.com/energy-storage-technology

    From my perspective, I dont think you can beat the lithium batteries at the present time. They way in which they can be cycled and stored at varying states of charge, their high energy density, good cycle life, it's all pretty hard to beat...

    Dennis, the cost of the lithiums will probably only come down in relative terms. That is, electricity will get more expensive and thus make even expensive batteries a cheaper alternative. Their actual price, probably won't fall much if at all, especially as the demand kicks in. But with inflation over time, energy storage is getting cheaper all the time.
     
  10. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    You are right. Lets philosophy. Lets say a large battery bank is put up with those type of batteries. The Chloride fumes must be astronomical high during charging by the solar panels. I don't think the panels will have a lifetime of 40 years, like we have the installation at Betty's bay, here in the RSA. Even if there is wind, it must affect the surrounding metals. What should one do to avoid corrosion? I maybe totally wrong and the Dutch Delft TU has solved all those problems, who knows.
    Bert
     
  11. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Thanks Groper, that certainly give us an idea. Even if we don't make it that fancy and the efficiency is much lower than the professionals, one does not have to beg for a good price, or are at leisure of upgrades. I don't know how much time I will have before flying off to Europe again, but I will give it a try.

    Did you catch any eatable fish? They had a provincial competition here at our beach and all what they picked up was large sting tails.
    Bert
     
  12. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Always get edible fish here mate :) I live on the Great Barrier Reef :p
    Just a great feed of tempura battered coral trout for dinner :D
     
  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I envy you. Here it is too cold to go out on a boat and too warm to go ice fishing
     
  14. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    That sounds delicious. Groper, the website your referred, I don't think from what I have seen from the photo's of the factory and their products, that it is that high tech. But I like their statements.


    High Performance: Avoid costly downtime and battery replacements
    Very high cycle life at 100% DoD
    Extremely abuse tolerant
    Ability to stand at partial state of charge
    Self-balancing
    Wide operating temperature range
    Minimal degradation

    Unparalleled Safety: Inherently safe chemistry !!!!
    Not flammable, explosive, or corrosive !!!!!!
    No dangerous or toxic components ??????

    Sustainable: Simple, abundant, nontoxic materials !!!!!!
    Environmentally benign materials
    No corrosive acids or noxious fumes !!!!!!!

    Suitable for deployment globally

    Excellent Economics: Industry-leading total cost of ownership !!!!!
    Low acquisition costs ($/kWh) !!!!!
    Better value than lead acid or lithium ion !!!!
    No regular maintenance
    Little/no thermal management
    No active management required

    I certainly will give it a go and try. Bert
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I agree with most of what you say, except for noxious fumes.
     
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