New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Nov 20, 2007.

  1. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    A stern kite....? ;)
    I'd rather bet for a stern wind vane, as those ships, if sail rigged, only could go with the wind. Interestingly, there seems to be no sails rigged. :p

    Cheers.
     
  2. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    When the archeologist and historians moved over and let mechanical engineers look at Leonardo DaVinci's drawings there was a massive change in interpretation. They then went and tried to build some of these inventions and the results and interpretations were once again different.
     
  3. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    May I do an interpretation?
    Let's see...

    What I see is a rowing war ship making head against wind and rolling waves (sailing right to left in the engraving), probably a 16 oars (each side) predecessor of the penteconter, with its mast abated. If with 30 oars it would have been a triaconter, or it could have also been a lembos or lemboi. The fishy symbol on the artistically overheighted stern can be the emblem of its captain or king, or any other relevant person or deity. It was common to fly a fillet or pennon (ταινία, fascia, taenia) attached behind the aplustre, which served both to distinguish and adorn the vessel, and also to show the direction of the wind. (But I don't refuse your kite theory....:) )

    A relevant captain of a triaconter was Hieron, a pilot or navigator of Soli in Cilicia, sent out by Alexander to explore the southern shores of the Erythraean sea, and circumnavigate Arabia. He advanced much further than any previous navigator had done, but at length returned, apparently discouraged by the unexpected extent of the Arabian coast, and reported on his return that Arabia was nearly as large as India.


    Cheers.

    P.S.
    Interesting article: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Navis.html
    Interesting book: http://books.google.es/books?id=sDp...sig=EDYctuDGxDRTCKvkFIQtxs_PSBw&hl=es#PPP1,M1
     
  4. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    Looks like I'm just going to have to build a large scale model and prove it to everybody.:)

    I'll give this a distant second place explaination..........
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite#History
     
  5. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    George,
    As said I don't refuse your kite theory. They could have been used to test the wind, signaling and communication. Interesting.

    Cheers.
     
  6. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    A few years ago I designed a logo for a friend getting into the import business. He wanted to include an ancient Greek sailing ship into it. I never quite figured out the purpose of the stern fin, was it decorative only, or did it serve a purpose?

    [​IMG]

    Answering this may help in answering questions about even older boats and ships.
     
  7. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Aplustre (or Aplustria) Meaning and Definition:
    (n.) An ornamental appendage of wood at the ship's stern, usually spreading like a fan and curved like a bird's feather.

    From http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Navis.html:

    "The stern (πρύμνη, puppis) was generally above the other parts of the deck, and in it the helmsman had his elevated seat. It is seen in the representations of ancient vessels to be rounder than the prow, though its extremity is likewise sharp. The stern was, like the prow, adorned in various ways, but especially with the image of the tutelary deity of the vessel (tutela). In some representations a kind of roof is formed over the head of the steersman, and the upper part of the stern frequently has an elegant ornament called aplustre, and in Greek ἄφλαστον, which constituted the highest part of the poop. It formed a corresponding ornament to the ἀκροστόλιον at the prow. At the junction of the aplustre with the stern on which it was based, we commonly observe an ornament resembling a circular shield: this was called ἀσπιδεῖον or ἀσπιδίσκη. It is seen on the two aplustria here represented (cf. Apollon. Rhod. I.1089, II.601; Apollod. I.9 §22; Hom Il. XV.716; Herod. VI.114). The aplustre rose immediately behind the gubernator, and served in some degree to protect him from wind and rain. Sometimes there appears, besides the aplustre, a pole, to which a fillet or pennon (ταινία) was attached, which served both to distinguish and adorn the vessel, and also to show the direction of the wind. In the column of Trajan, a lantern is suspended from the aplustre so as to hang over the deck before the helmsman.

    The aplustre commonly consisted of thin planks, and presented a broad surface to the sky. In consequence of its conspicuous place and beautiful form, the aplustre was often taken as the emblem of maritime affairs: it was carried off in triumph by the victor in a naval engagement (Juven. X.135), and Neptune is sometimes represented on medals holding the aplustre in his right hand, as in the annexed woodcut; and in the celebrated Apotheosis of Homer, now in the British Museum, the female personating the Odyssey exhibits the same emblem in reference to the voyages of Odysseus."


    From: http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0646.html
    "Besides the badge which distinguished each individual ship, and which was either an engraved and painted wooden image forming part of the prow, or a figure often accompanied by a name and painted on both the bows of the vessel, other insignia, which could be elevated or lowered at pleasure, were requisite in naval engagements. These were probably flags or standards, fixed to the aplustre or to the top of the mast, and serving to mark all those vessels which belonged to the same fleet or to the same nation. Such were " the Attic" and " the Persic signals" .... A purple sail indicated the admiral's ship among the Romans, and flags of different colours were used in the fleet of Alexander the Great."



    Cheers.
     

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  8. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    The Greek ship is too far removed for the sail discussion, although it's very interesting as well.

    A Phoenician Bireme...........much closer to the main topic and much older too.

    Link to image:
    http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/19300/19323/bireme_19323.htm


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians
    [​IMG]
    ............................................................


    http://www.catshaman.com/15Sailors/05sailors12.htm
    Cycladic ships
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    .........................................

    http://www.catshaman.com/15Sailors/05sailors1.htm
    [​IMG]
    After his research Bjoern Landstroem made this drawing of a goat ship.

    http://www.catshaman.com/15Sailors/05sailors1.htm
    [​IMG]
    Evidence of three seasons in 4th millennium Naqada.
     
  9. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    The Cyclades are Greek islands.

    "By about 2000BC the Mainland and Island Greeks were beginning to take an increasing interest in the navigation of the Eastern Mediterranean. As early as the third millenium it is possible to distinguish at least two kinds of ships in use in the Aegean. Firstly there are representations in the bottom of shallow terracotta dishes of what have come to be known as 'fry pan' ships. These are characteristically long narrow vessels with a high projection at one end and a projecting foot or ram at the other. The question of which is stem and which is stern is not clear and has been the subject of considerable academic controversy. The high projection is usually decorated with a fish and a hanging tassle.
    ........................
    At this point it is necessary to return to the third millenium Aegean 'Fry Pan' ships. The problem here is to decide which was the stem and which was the stern since it is not possible to determine the direction in which the boat is moving. Logically the fish emblem might be expected to point forward in which case the high projection must by the stem. If so, what is the function of the projection at the stern which clearly cannot be a ram ? Casson argues that the stern projection was a skid to protect the stern when beaching the boat stern first. Morrison by contrast argues that the projection was a ram at the stem and the high projection was at the stern, to protect the steersman against a following sea. Marinatos observed that in Cretan and Mycenean hieroglyphs ship symbols always point in one direction which is opposite to the direction of the writing whilst symbols for living things, including fish, point in the direction of the writing. It follows that the high projection must be the stern of the boat, and the low projection must therefore be a skid of ram at the bow. It is also quite possible that early builders of keel boats were unable to produce a satisfactory scarf between the end of the keel and the stern post and adopted the simpler solution of dropping the stem post into a mortise joint cut into the upper surface of the forward end of the keel. In this event that part of the keel which projected forward of the mortise joint would be left as a projecting foot to protect that mortise joint behind it. Its purpose is thus structural rather than functional. Such methods can be found in Bronze Age Northern European boats."

    http://www.cma.soton.ac.uk/HistShip/shlect18.htm

    Also curious:

    "It seems certain that early river ships and particularly the open sea ships used a compass in the shape of a fish as did the ancient Chinese ships. Also fish compasses were found on Cycladic Neolithic frying pans and on Viking boats."

    http://www.greecetravel.com/archaeology/mitsopoulou/boats.html


    Cheers.
     

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  10. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    That is a nice quote and link Guillermo.

    It makes sense to me, that mankind would mimic nature and being a land dweling creature take his land based technology and attempt to apply it to the sea. I wish this to mean that he took a kite with him on a boat and the rest is history.

    However I'm having some doubts as one image which I cannot seem to find twice showed a guy fishing at the bow, or I should say pulling up a fish from the sea. There are so many images that it's all becoming blurred.

    The new thought in my head is that the fish may indicate the season or even a destination such as home, or a far away trading port.

    I have to one day I will have to build a simple model and see if this works, then let the arguments fly.;)


    EDIT:
    That last image reminds me of a World War II Barrage Balloon.
    http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-eur/normandy/normandy.htm
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    OK.
    So we have several possibilities by now:
    1.- A kite to propel the ship.
    2.- A kite as a comms signal between ships.
    3.- A magnified representation of the more important instrument aboard: the compass.
    4.- A marking signal to identify the captain, king, nation or deity.
    5.- A weathercock to show the direction of wind.
    6.- A symbol to represent fishing

    As almost all the representations I have been able to find displaying the fishy thing, have no masts, I'd eliminate the weathercock option and, as those were war ships, I'd eliminate also the fishing posibility.

    To fly a propulsion kite from the highest (and more difficult to reach) point of the ship would have been not very sensible from the stability point of view, nor there are (known to me ) precedents of kites having previously been used for propulsion purposes on land.

    I vote for possibilities 2, 3 or 4 (with a present tendency for #3), but would love to see your model and tests whenever you do them. :)

    Cheers and good night (here).
     
  12. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    You forgot the blimp theory, they had blimps - fed the boys beans for the methane.
     
  13. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Methane to burn to make the hot air? not that good for balloons...
     
  14. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    The problem with the compass theory is that, as far as is known, compasses were not yet invented 3000 years b.c. ;) There is discussion about when they were, but for sure a sofisticated navigation instrument like that was not available at the time. Not even in the times of Alexander. The earliest reference to a specific magnetic direction finder device is recorded in a Song Dynasty book dated to 1040-44 a.c. Here we find a description of an iron "south-pointing fish" floating in a bowl of water.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass
    So there seems to go to hell this otherwise tempting theory :)

    Now, apart from the 'blimp' theory, which probably is only related with some of the captains being old fat farts :D , we only have two remaining ones, #2 and #4, which can even join in a single one. But for the time being, I'll stick to #4, my initial one.

    Quod erat demonstrandum.

    .............

    Another interesting consideration on the prow-stern discussion on Cycladic ships: from the point of view of aerodinamics it makes very little sense to have a very high and big sail area just at the very end of the bow, as it would have made those vessels totally unsteereable in something stronger than a force 1 generally speaking. So I bet again for such a protuberancy being the 'aplustre' at the stern and the pointy thing at the other end being an ornamental, not combat oriented, ram.

    You're right: we urgently need NAs to help the historians....:)

    Cheers.
     

  15. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    Since I've hi-jacked this thread and feel ashamed, in an effort to get back on topic I pose a new question.

    When, where and who was the first kite sail used and or invented............offiical western civilization explanations and alternate theories will be accepted.

    Wiki links will also be considered.
     
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