need help with a design

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by snoman774, May 14, 2008.

  1. snoman774
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: arkansas

    snoman774 Junior Member

    hey ted this looks promising kind of the same thing i was looking for with the spray in bed liner
    i first considered using 55 gal drums for pontoons and coating them with spray in bed liner but thats gonna be

    any idea what this stuff cost i think 5 gallons would be way plenty fo my flat barge the said one covers something like 260 sq ft is that right
    the bed liner was something like 15sq ft per gallon
     
  2. snoman774
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: arkansas

    snoman774 Junior Member

    thanks dragon you were right this site has some very knowledgeable peopleon it and from what i can tell looking through tthe archives ive got a few of em making suggestions for little o me
    oh and pictures are a reguirement arent they??!!
    got to have em for my buddies anyway over here
    http://www.catfish1.com/forums/register.php?referrerid=18799
     
  3. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    The CTE doesn't do well in sunlight, so keep it at/below the waterline. It IS defiantly cheaper than Rhino. A gal "kit" is around $40-50 bucks. You will need no more than 2 gal. & that gives you at least 2 coats. I bet more. Harder to do, but worth while is a coat inside the hull, especially where the bilge water lays.
    It will get you "loopy", so a mask, & GOOD, (no, GREAT), ventilation is needed. A windy day is perfect.
    There is even a red color.
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    With your budget, epoxy and tape will effectively absorb a substantial amount of the materials cost, though it is a worthwhile investment in terms of durability.

    TiteBond II isn't recommended for anything that may have water touch it. It literally melts within a few minutes of contact. TiteBond III is more durable, but is still an alphatic resin, which is only water resistant. Even though TiteBond III can tolerate much more contact with water, it too will eventually fail. It's also not rated as a "structural adhesive" (none of the TiteBond Products are), which brings the question of why bother.

    TiteBond III is a good choice for interior work, cabinets, shelves, seating etc., but not on the weather decks or in the hull.

    Yes, you could seal up the plywood seams with butt blocks and caulk. Ditto the bottom to side joint with a chine log.

    Ideally you'll want to build light, so that the boat will actually get up on plane. I estimate a ton or less if possible, for mid 20's with a 50 HP outboard. You could get high 20's if you used a Sea Sled design. Both the Sea Sled and barge hull (if designed properly) will be efficient at these speeds, though the barge hull will have limited returns considering the amount of drag associated with this hull type. Also, both hull types are very stable at rest and underway.

    I could draw you up a very simple sled or barge hull for either taped seam (yes, the epoxy goo stuff) or plywood over frames (heavier, but easier), for not a lot of money. Drop me an email (click on my name) and we'll discuss it.
     
  5. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    What's your opinion of PL, tube caulk construction adhesive, Par? I've used it from time to time also. Tws
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    PL glues are fully type I waterproof, which is good, though I don't like them. They require a fair amount of joint pressure, make an ugly glue line, the expansion can be troublesome and I don't like the idea of wetting wood prior to gluing in a boat.
     
  7. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    I guess it's a question of use. For me, I never wetted any wood. All my joints were also screwed. I've never tried to use it in any real "fine" work, but I see your point on ugly. It can be a tad sloppy when squeezed out & left oozing.
    My big complaint with the caulking tube is, once pierced, the tube must be used up. I've never satisfactorily resealed one for more than a day.
    Anyway, thanks.
    .
     
  8. snoman774
    Joined: May 2008
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    snoman774 Junior Member

    ok how bout i build ply over a frame similar to ted with screws then tape and epoxy the seams then what? epoxy only for the rest of the hull or something like the coal tar epoxy? what about above the water line and inside?and how much should tape for all the seams and the epoxy cost ? just a quick estimate im thinkin 150 yards of tape would cover all the seamson the outside anyways one time. or should it be 2 layers? what about inside seams?


    ted since this thing is gonna be out of the water more than in if im lucky every weekend bu t doubtful would the coal tar epoxy really be necassary or would sometype of paint be better?
     
  9. cor
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    cor Senior Member

    Instant Boat Construction:
    AC exterior plywood, deck screws (coated "drywall type"), 2x2 chine logs, and PL400. Use butt blocks to join the plywood together if you need pieces over 8'. 1/2" plywood works nice for a butt block, but any scrap of lumber will work. Get yourself an angle grinder with a rubber backup pad and a 36 grit disk, works great for shaping all those awkward bevels and cleaning up things. A rip gauge for a your circular saw is almost as good as a table saw for cutting bevels on chine logs and ripping thin strips from 2x stock for gunwales, and etc. If your boat is going to be dry sailed (not stored in the water), you can use any cheap-o paint.

    I have built a lot of small boats this way with great results. Check out http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/ for some examples of this type of work.
     
  10. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    Snoman, you have a basic problem that is going to challenge, "Quick, easy, & cheap.. You want to trailer it. I'm an old catfisher from OK, so I think I know, (perhaps more than some), what you are wanting. It probably won't be entered in any wooden boat shows & a thick glue line isn't that important. I'm going to guess that building a little gem of a boat, as a hobby, is not your main plan. . You want it safe & sturdy, with an average performance level, I'm betting. Then you want to use it to do, what you like best, catching those big flatheads & channels. The problem for you is weight. That opens another can of worms. My barge is quick, cheap & anyone could build one, BUT, it is heavy. That is fine for me, it only needs to be moved 1 mile & there it stays, forever. All it has to do is float there, not so with your needs. To get a plywood barge the size you want AND trailer it, will take a proven design. I've been looking for one, for you. I've found several good "plans", but I think they all require MORE, (maybe), than you are willing to do. You really need a "stich & glue" style boat. mine could be slimmed down here & there some by trimming & shaping the frames, eliminating some & using double sheets of thinner ply, but then you are back into "building" a boat. I'm willing to work with the idea with you, but "quick & simple" will have to be sacrificed.
    .
    Back in the olden days, boats were built without glass, resins, tapes & "coatings. There was a learning curve, an apprenticeship & a skill level required to do this. What modern materials has provided mostly is FORGIVNESS. A few mistakes can be made & a satisfactory result can still be realized. Skill level doesn't have to be as high, materials not as specific.
    If anyone with little or no boat building experience is to build a boat out of Home Depot materials & end up with something worth the time & effort, then YES, modern materials are necessary.
    .
    http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/Categories?category=cloth tape strips 12"
    http://www.nutty.com/galvdeck.shtml
     
  11. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    Snoman, I in no way condone this plan. You should take with a doubtful look at the "fantasy claims", they make, BUT... here is an example of your first idea, barrels.
    http://www.boatdesign.com/pnutline.htm
    In your case, the cabin could be left off. Instead of steel barrels, coated, (they will just rust from the inside anyway, from condensation), use plastic drums.
    Based on my experience with drums, (my dad was a "drum nut", he tried it several times.:) ), i think it a foolish effort. However, you joined & shared your ideas to get help.
    There are a few "barrel" tricks i've learned along the way.
    . Here is a 50 barrel paddle wheeler. It worked, kinda, for awhile, then the fastening system went to hell. The barrels started popping out while underway. After a few near sinkings, it was abandoned. It was powered by a 6cyl. Chevy. :D
     

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  12. snoman774
    Joined: May 2008
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    snoman774 Junior Member

    hit the nail right square on the head..
    maybe im biting off more than i can chew but
    i still like the idea of building my own so
    its exactly what i want and need and i dont
    have to spend 12 to 20 thousand on a pontoon
    then rip all the fine luxury seat off it so i can slime it up!!!
    the only lboat show it ll be in is at the boat ramp showing off
    record fish.. quick easy and cheap would be nice but as i am discovering
    thats not near as possible as i thought. still i think it can be done
    cheaper than buying new or in most cases used.

    glad your willing to help but i dont want to take up all your time because
    with my budget i could never pay what thats worth.

    ive got a little 15' monark (flat aluminum) thats almost perfect for 2 or maybe even 3 people but ive got 4 kids and my brother and his kids love fishing just as much and i figure the longer i can keep em on the creeks the longer i can keep em off th e streets.

    any way thanks for all the advice and suggestion sso far from everybody.
    chris
     
  13. snoman774
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: arkansas

    snoman774 Junior Member

    that is exactly the two problems i kept running in to
    how to fasten the barrels and keep em from rusting
    and what if i hit a stump and crush 2 or 3 barrels
     

  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Snoman, barrels aren't the answer, though to the novice they may seem like a quick, down and dirty way to have a boat. They do work quite well on a static vessel, like a diving platform or floating dock. As a moving craft, they are about the worst thing, filled with many issues, not applicable in more conventional builds or hull types.

    The bottom line is weight, both I and Ted have pointed this out. The biggest problem all novice builders make is over building. With your limited budget and experience, you need a well thought out plan. It's very unlikely (no offense) that an amateur will design and build a successful power craft, particularly if you expect it to do more then displacement speed (in your case about 6.5 knots on a 23' LWL).

    Yep, epoxy is the wood butcher's best friend and taping seams only will help considerably, plus reduce weight (if followed to it's full potential).

    There are quite a few barge type house boat platforms and quite a few pontoon like hulls. Most will not do what you'd like on a 50 HP outboard. Most of these designs are intended as fishing and camping shacks, with propulsion being a minor consideration when she's launched in the spring and hauled in the fall.

    You need a plan. I and others can provide one or you can hope for the best and "wing" it.
     
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