Naval Architecture vs. Yacht Design

You'll get a good basic design education but probably not a job. In this day of super credentialism The big U piece of paper is worth far more than something as simple and mundane as competence.

Go to LANDING SCHOOL to learn how, then go to big U to get the piece of paper that says you do.

I have always said that a college degree is the worlds most expensive union card. My family is full of degree holders, yet most can't do half of what I can.
I guess once they leave big U, they figure they're done learning.

Bob

 

I've always wondered about this topic. Especially in the education forum.
I have no problem with anyone calling themselves a designer, any more than calling oneself an artist. I do feel someone hanging out a shingle as a N.A. should have a substantial engineering background.
On second thought, I don't think anyone without a P.E. has any right to call themselves a N.A.
The AIA doesn't require all members to be P.E.s, however I believe they must have a degree in Architecture. A degree in architecture requires quite a bit of engineering, above and beyond the drafting and artsy skills.

 

Dishsail
The landing school is a great place to learn boat design, however it will not give you a recognizable degree of any kind.

 

Steve
Is this true or am I mistaken.

 

It isn't the object

Eric, it isn't the object that is licensed, it is the offer or practice to the public that is licensed. If someone offered to practice mechanical engineering on cars without being licensed they would be in trouble, and there is a CA case involving gun design. However, an employee or probably a contracted consultant (under de minimus non curate lex) is protected by the industrial exemption, so actual boatbuilders and repairers, their employees, and their consultants are exempt, and this derives from the interstate commerce clause of the US Constitution, so it isn't going away real soon.

 

Just to give a sight from other country's experience:

In Spain we have two kind of NA's:

- "Ingenieros Técnicos Navales", with two specializations: "Arquitecto Naval" (I think something like Naval Architect, but not the same) and "Ingeniero en Máquinas Marinas" (I think something like Marine Engineer, but not the same). They study at University for 3 years. Can only sign a design/project within their field of knowledge (So structures/stability on one side and machinery/systems on the other)

- "Ingenieros Navales": They study for 5/6 years at University (Depending on programmes) and also have two specializations in the line of the precedent ones, plus an additional one: "Ingeniero Oceánico" (Oceanic engineer). With this Ingeniero Naval title one can sign any kind of design/project for a boat/craft/ship/oceanic structure, independent of specialization.

Most probably this will change soon, when the armonizing titles all around Europe occurs. Still in discussion, but leading to unify the "Ingenieros Técnicos Navales" and the "Ingenieros Navales", although keeping the idea of specializations allowing to sign within the field of speciality and then a master degree allowing the signature of full designs.

Only an Ingeniero Naval can legally sign a full boat/ship design to be built in Spain, independent of size, and supervise the construction (It's mandatory an end of works certificate and stability booklet signed by an Ingeniero Naval, even if the vesel is Classified), with the significative exception of the recreational market:

Under the CE rules, a boatyard doesn't need a signed design to build a recreational boat/craft. They just need (for construcion modulus other than A, under which the boatyard is the one who certifies) the intervention of a Notified Body (Most of them are Classification Societies) for the assesement and certification of the specific unit or prototipe. A boatyard may choose one system or another depending on the boat's length and Design Category. In Spain the government further regulated this, allowing the boats certified only by the boatyard itself, to sail only in harbours, rivers and small lakes.

So boatyards may choose to do the design by themselves, to hire the services of a Ingeniero Naval or Ingeniero Técnico Naval, or hiring the services of other titled/non-titled designers.

I think no boatyard is actually building under modulus A, because then they have difficulties to sell the boat, unless it is an small tender. For boats up to 12 m, they use to build them under modulus A subfix A, Option One, with the intervention of a Notified Body only for the assesement of freeboard, buoyancy and stability. The rest of the compliance with CE Rules is certified by the own boatyard, so structure, installations, etc.

Recreational boats over 12 m, designed under categories A,B or C, need the assesement an approval of a Notified Body not only for stability but also for structure, installations, etc.

Although not mandatory, Notified Bodies are tending nowadays to ask small boatyards with low technical skills, to hire the services of NA's as advisors/designers, so the Notified Body can discuss techical matters with them, at least in my zone.

From 12 to 24 m, is common for the boatyards to employ at least one Ingeniero Naval or Ingeniero Técnico Naval.

CE rules cover only recreational craft up to 24 m, so in Spain boats bigger than that are considered merchant vessels, and need the signature of a Ingeniero Naval for design, stability and works supervision.

Canoes, kayaks, boats under 2.5 m, racing boats, and some others, are not covered by the CE rules, and let's say are "design signing free".

I would like very much to hear from other countries experiences.

 

We have bachelor degree with 3 years study and Master degree with 5 years and a quite substantial "thesis" at the end. These studies can be in the direction of metal hulls, ferries, ships, fast passengers boats etc, but we have no specializing in pleasure crafts. The same programs also offer specialising in off shore structures (platforms, fish farms, power plants etc). I think this translates to Nav. Arch.
The master program is more general and spends more time on theory, hydrodynamics, advanced mathematics etc, while the Bachelor program is more practical, and may even include some pleasure craft design. So this could be called Yacht Design.
The CE rules and marks is really a large step down or back from the "Nordic boat standard" we used to have. Some years ago almost all small crafts where tested and approved by DNV, now they all have a category C which means nothing. I think there is a trend towards using DNV or IMCI again as the customers discover that anyone can put on a CE mark.

 

I study Naval Architecture and Marine technology. I can tell for sure that a Yacht Designer can only design yachts and small crafts or whatever is concerned whithin. A Naval Architect can also disign, built a yacht or a bigger vessel. But,and here is the difference, he can also design offshore constructions, such as jack-up,T.l.P and.... he can work as a shipyard manager, or ship production manager

 

Also check this link out

http://www.shipfriends.gr/forum/

is a forum about yachts and sailing, but the most of it is in greek
This could help you.

You should also contact Royal Institution of Naval Architects. I am a member.


http://www.rina.org.uk

 

Chris, I was very clear in my post that it is indeed the profession and the practice that is regulated, not the object.

For the rest of you, here in the US, it is generally accepted that if you have a college engineering degree in naval architecture or marine engineering, you may call yourself such. If you do not have the college degree but design boats, then you are a designer. The college degree is what distinquishes you, not the license, and that is as it should be. This is the general sense, and there are a few exceptions.

Any boatyard or shipyard may build whatever they want--the plans do not have to be signed in the eyes of the government. They may have to be signed for inspected commercial craft, such as by the federal government or the classification society if you want the certificate to operate the vessel and get insurance.

For recreational craft, there are a few federal standards that must be complied with, and the boatyard must verify to the federal government that it complies. Boat plans do not have to be created by degreed or licensed individuals--anyone may submit plans and documents for review. The federal government knows how to deal with this. For commercial craft, there are inspected vessels and uninspected vessels. Uninspected vessels do not need any extra review over an above that for recreational craft. Inspected vessels have various stages of proof that they must go through with the federal government (US Coast Guard), but the government does not require that the documents be prepared by a naval architect or marine engineer. They would prefer it, but it is not required.

In addition to that, if the vessel is to be classed by a classification society, then the classification society must verify compliance with their standards. They do not require that the plans be prepared by a naval architect or marine engineer, but it certainly helps if they are because of the very dense engineering calculations and studies that have to be done on the structure and the equipment--you get that training in college, not so in one of the small craft design schools.

The whole point here is that the system works very well they way it has been going with current federal, industry, and classification standards. The vast majority of the naval architects, marine engineers, yacht and small craft designers know their limits, and the state does not really have to stick their finger in the mix. If the state did do so, then they have to move a lot farther past just licensing the naval architects and marine engineers. They will have to set up inspection standards and practices, make sure the inspectors are licensed, and make sure that every vessel complies with the standards. Because our country is divided into 50 different state governments, and 5 territories, you have the potential to set up 55 different sets of standards that are all at various degrees in conflict with each other. As Chris intimated, state standards at cross purposes with each other would set up conflicts in interstate commerce, which the US Constitution prohibits. Therefore, conflicting state standards would not be allowed, which leaves us with the current system of some federal standards and industry and classification standards, and these work just fine.

Ship owners and builders know how the shipbuilding system works, and they almost always deal with reputable degreed people that have done fine work without licensure.

As yachts get bigger and large yacht owners become more knowledgeable, they will learn to ask about degrees and licenses, and if it is important to them, they will hire appropriately qualified people to design and build their boats. The market forces should be free to choose whatever level to follow.

Eric

 

There is a vast difference between US standards and those of Europe, let that be noted carefully, who is licensed, who is not, is a matter of mostly bureaucracy; USA is famous for their red tape and so are a number of other countries. I will release now something that should not be said openly but I think that it cannot harm to do it once.
The classification societies exist only because of the insurance companies. The insurance companies require some sort of certificate from an independent party to give them the trust that a particular vessel is build according to a number of minimum standards. ABS for example is one of the easiest standards tp comply to and therefore very popular among yachtdesigners who like to run on the edges.
Standards of Lloyds, GL and DNV are much higher than RINA or ABS - Don't feel offended, it is a fact of life!
It depends on the insurer party which certificate they accept. I renmember a case of tankers that carried valid RINA certificates but leaked oil and turned out to be sailing carcasses after they were checked by the Port authorities.
Let's not speak of certificates of countries like Liberia and the lot.

This might be an interesting thread but what does it mean in the practise?
Ocean Engineers, Mechanic engineers, Ocean designers, Yacht Designers,
Naval Architects? Materials are changing, but rules don't -.

With the establishment of the CE ruling, the shipyards could bring in their experience and were allowed to discuss technical issues with the officials that were involved to produce the volume of those rulings. Of course at a hefty payment!!

It is a shipyard that build a boat - not the designer, naval architect or whoever!
The shipyard can do with the design what they want, make it better or make it worse and that is what counts!

 

As an amatuer, in the U.S., I would like to know if the design I'm working on is prepared by a N.A. with a substantial background in structural engineering or a designer with the same skills I pocess. I certainly don't think all designs need to be created by N.A.s. However I would like to know the difference.
Currently I believe there are many designers working under the title of N.A. with no engineering experience beyond book learning, not a bad thing, but a licencse and it's apparent seal of approval is better.
I agree D'Artois,
However wouldn't you be more confident building a design, designed by someone with the credentials to design the vessel in the first place.
This is all something from someone designing thier first boat doubters be damned!

 

I, myself, wouldn't dream of calling myself an NA. I think I would need a degree for that purpose. The worst thing in the world for business are dissatisfied customers. And letting them believe they have been hoodwinked is one of the best ways to accomplish that. On the other hand, the best thing in the world is word of mouth. And that usually comes from 'facts on the ground'. Design a succesful vessel, even a modest one, and your 'street cred' goes up.

When people in the boat building business start liking your work, you know you are on the right track. My goal is to have a series of small successes and to make a minimal number of mistakes. I may someday design large boats, but for now I'll stick to under 30 and less than 10.

I think that in 'boat design', as in any just about every other field, one lives and dies on talent. One can have all the degrees in the world and yet fail for lack of talent.

I have come to the realization that my interest in boat design does not match my limited talent.

One of the dangers of a credentialist society is that it is usually not very good at determening real talent. And that it can even end up crowding it out.

And that is my main concern.

Bob

 

Interesting debate on the PE in the nav.arch.field has been going on for a while. Many heated exchanges in print in Professional Boat Builder magazine. Good points have been made on both sides of the argument.
Interestingly in the U.S. there was no PE license for Nav.Arch. until maybe 4-5 years ago, when SNAME finally forced the issue. So if you are looking for a lot of PEs in Nav.Arch. to do a design/engineering job, you probably won't won't have many to choose from in the U.S. A handful have probably passed the test each year for the last few years.

 

As far as my country (italy) is concerned the situation is this:
Up untill 4 years ago the only choice was naval engineering.
The majority of succesful designers in my country are not NA since as all of you probably know ship building and engineering and small craft eng. are 2 very different topics,not to mention sail vs ships.
Many have some sort of eng. degree very often in a branch that has nothing to do with boats,our most famous high speed craft designer is a mechanical engineer.
4 years ago a deg. in "nautical" engineering appeared and that is the way to go now.
I've been following an italian study program similar to westlawn (and still doing so) and i might assure that I know better about small craft than any naval engineer coming out from university that has never heard about
FRP structuires ,Planing theory and relative weight managment,sails and so on.
But then this people can sign projects and I can't.
There are many NE that studied by themselves small craft design and of course they know what they do...but still...do they know better than a generic boat designer coming out from westlawn or similar ?
As far a I know the only very good school of small craft eng. in europe is southampton,other than that I guess that more or less what really counts is personal experience and word of mouth.
Of course I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT MY COUNTRY,not US.