nautical miles on new French SV's.

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by rclouise, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    My wife and I are very interested in the French designs such as the Boreal 44 and some of the Ovni's of similar size. We recently completed a two year passage on our Mason 44 from Seattle to NZ and enjoyed every minute of it. But watching the French in their center board boats once we made it to French Polynessia showed us there is a different world out there in cruising than this old yankee new englander was used too. The owner of Boreal mentioned to me he got 185 nautical miles without pushing her when he was delivering one to a boat show. He thought they could do 200 nautical miles but I keep hearing this type of boat is not that fast. Anyone know what these boats can do?
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  2. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    I didn't know the boat and after reading the press -in French, I'm a froggie- I find the boat very interesting.

    For the speed the Voiles et Voiliers mag talks with a 30 knots wind:
    7 knots upwind. 8 knots mean speed downwind with bursts at 9.5 knots. I do know well the sea in front of Treguier (North Brittany in France) and it's not an easy one (very agitated with the west wind going against the tide, the height of the tides can reach 22-24 feet thus creating very strong currents.)
    No gennaker or spinaker with a 30 knots wind...

    The boat has 44 feet (13.80m.) with displacement of 22597 pounds (10.25 metric tons)-"light"- With this kind of hull, the displacement, and the possibility of playing with the three daggerboards plus a good gennaker or asymetric spy I see the 190 NM/day (8 knots) very possible (if the boat is not overloaded) in regular Tradewinds and good sea.

    This kind of boats have excellent mean speed (and that is what counts cruising). That's is a modern sail boat for circumnavigation cruising. The boat has been elected boat of the year by the french nautical press, and it's a small shipyard...so the boat must be a good one.
    In France there are a lot of good consultants so with the very stringent french anch and european rules the engineering and realisation must be in the good side.

    The boat costs 400.000 Euros -base price- but the construction pics show something nice and the scantlings are good.

    Very interesting indeed.

    The article in Voiles et Voiliers.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/30332005/Boreal-44-La-haute-mer-en-pantoufles-Loisirs-Nautiques

    The 180 milles/day, and even a bit more, is very possible with a 44 feet modern cruising monohull with the good conditions and people decided to get speed from the boat. In 1988 a 60 tears old acquaintance of mine crossed the Pacific on a 45 feet cruising catamaran with days of 250 miles, alone and sleeping 8 hours day. Very relaxed.

    In 1987, in coastal cruising, we did 205 milles in 10 hours on a 40 feet catamaran, beneficiating of exceptionnal conditions of wind and sea. But it was a former Formula 40, weighting only a bit more of 2 metric tons in "coastal cruisibg" configuration, with almost 200 m2 of sail between the main sail, the solent and the asymetric spi and 3 guys decided to get the max. A very enjoyable and wet experience.
     
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  3. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    Ilan,
    Thank you for your time and knowledge in helping us find out a little more information on the Boreal 44. www.vouliers-boreal.com/ Though we are well familiar with the North American world and mind set of blue water cruising we are very new to the European modern design. Jean-Francois Delvoye, founder of Boreal has been very forthcoming in supplying us with information but it is good to ask outside the box. I've enjoyed stopping in here at boat design over the years and learning more than any other website could possibly offer. So to say the least we need to dig and dig before deciding this is the direction we want to go for our next cruising boat. We must admit that we were impressed with the French boats on our last passage through the South Pacific. At first we were concerned with stability factors for such boats but reasoning works in many ways. Over the last three years talking with 4 different cruisers who have been knocked down and hard in boats such as Tayanna's 52's and other heavy displacement cruisers. All that I can say is no matter what the stability factor, **** happens for whatever reason and usually one comes to find out over time it was pilot error. Like all blue water cruising boats there are things to like and dislike about these French boats. It's amazing how much time one can spend thinking about the plus and minus of a chain locker in the center of the boat.
    Any way thanks for the info and if anyone else has comments on the french designs or knows if this has been discussed here before please chine in.
    Steve and Tracy.
     
  4. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    rc loise you're wellcome.

    The "deriveurs lestes" (centerboard sail boats) have a long history in France, at least 60 years. The old generation of NA Mrs Herbulot, Harle, Sergent and many others draw deriveurs lestes of all sizes since the 1950's, the new generations further modernized the concept.

    There is a solid tradition of aluminum deriveurs lestes designed for high sea cruising in France since the 1970's, so this kind of boat has now a long way of refinements for the hull's lines, optimal displacement, surface of sail, scantlings etc. Very different of the classical american heavy displacement, and some will scream, I claim that the deriveurs lestes are superior for blue water cruising.

    As naval engineer, I see some advantages:
    - Aluminum AUG4 (5082 and others ) is a very good material for cruising boats. Rather strong, light and no problems of rust. Con: you have to be cautious about galvanic corrosion but it's well known and mastered.
    - The center of gravity is not too low. That minimizes the pendulum effects of the heavy low ballasts. Also you can change the underwater foils surfaces and placement so you can equilibrate the boat easily. In heavy weather with the centerboard up the boat is less likely to be rolled by a wave, as it can "slide" on the side.
    - As the boat is a medium displacement, the sail surface needed to get a decent speed is smaller, and asks for a less heavy hardware (masts, winches, furlers etc...). Or with the same surface as a heavy displacement you get a better speed...
    In heavy weather speed is a factor of security as you keep the boat able to maneuver, and not caught by the waves from behind. Vito Dumas in 1943 experimented already that on the Legh II during his circumnavigation by the Roaring Forties...We applied successfully that principle in August 1979 while crossing the Channel from Ireland (we were not part of the Fastnest race) on a 9.14 meters sail boat; I can say by first hand experience that works...
    With the modern communication means, ie detailed weather reports by internet, you can many times escape from a bad zone because the boat is fast enough.

    - And the cherry on the iced cake, you can approach the beaches, pass over reefs, cut through shallows, and go in coasts of high tides. Not being handicapped by a 7, 8 or 9 feet deep keel...

    PS You would be surprised by the bad effects induced on the stability by 500 pounds of chain in the bow. The advantages of putting these 500 pounds in a low place in the middle of the boats outweighs the minor disadvantages. When well conceived and made the circulation of the chain is not a problem. Lateral advantage, the chain is fixed on the strongest part of the boat; the keel.
     
  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I do not want to rain on your parade here Ilan, Steve and Tracy, but the 200 miles / day, is and remains to be, a very rare occasion with a 44ft monohull.

    Not many 65ft boats do that regularely, much contrary to the club bar stories.

    Regards
    Richard
     

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  6. rclouise
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    rclouise Junior Member

    Ilan, thanks again that is an interesting history of the modern French center board sailboat. I only recall one French sailboat in the very early 70's while sailing through Indonesia and I don't remember what type of vessel it was. But I do remember the women on board were always naked, stoned and beautiful.:D
    Apex1 brought up a reasonable point from Beth and Evans article on how hard it is to get that magical 8.33 kts for 24 hours strait. I would never expect a 44 foot blue water cruiser to bang away at that pace day after day but I think with the two dagger boards and medium displacement helping push the boat in a very strait line one could for maybe 6 to 12 hours run at that speed under the right conditions if needed. If we order such a vessel and by the time it is built Tracy and I will be in our early 60's so we are not into being beaten to death for long periods of time.
    Ilan brought up the chain locker placement and I agree it is in the right place a brilliant idea. But then a hundred small problems pop up. How do you wash your chain at the bow as it comes up and watch your windlass at the same time? How many times have we all had the chain get jammed as it drops into a chain locker. What about the pipe that the chain goes through from bow to chain locker, How do you clean it without flooding out the chain locker? Anyone who has pulled anchor in Pago Pago knows the smell of the chain locker by the time you have made the one night passage to Apia. How do you get that stink out of that pipe? I know it's a small thing but it's a small thing that drives cruisers crazy thinking about, I can't imagine what you designers go through or if you ever sleep.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  7. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    I do agree Richard it's why I took very precautionary words; not overloaded, right conditions of sea and wind and people able to get and maintain the speed.
    These conditions are not reunited every morning. But I can say that good modern cruisers are able of very good mean speeds and more important are able to get it with normal people without a debauch of high tech.

    I did a few years of cruise racing at good level and I know how many knots cost every little mistake in the tuning of the sails, and multiple other factors. That's the difference between a good team and a mediocre one. That may cost easily 20 to 30 NM a day. I think the 200 Nm is a bit far but 185-190 very possible. And surely the 165 NM mark is not a problem with the right conditions, without pushing very hard.

    I'll add some precisions about the 205 NM in 10 hours as I'm sure that most of the readers are incredulous. The meteo conditions were exceptional, it was at 98% reaching, the Formula 40 was almost new, with a magnificent set of sails in kevlar-tridimensional cut on a 18 meters rotating mast with hydraulic controls, the 2 other guys were 2 professionals of the French Flying Circus (the 2 did several circumnavigations racing in mega multihulls later, and one did 2 America Cups) and we stayed 10 hours with the main sheet and the asymetric spi sheet "in hand". I do not remember to have pissed...The jumbo marked several times 25, reached once or twice 27 (you feel it's the last limit), and never went under 21 knots, except the very small portion of upwind made at 16 knots with 35 knots of apparent wind on an almost flat sea. Truly very exciting. And nothing in common with cruising!
     
  8. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Frenchies have a certain style for cruising, and the beautiful naked girls are a primordial part of it. Add the food and drinks (no beer or sodas, please). I would never put my *** on a monohull boat if there are not at least 2 sympathetic girls for the pleasure of the eyes. Intelligence is a big plus as a good conversation is highly appreciated.

    About chain locker. Mr Delvoye has a long experience of cruising, and surely took precautions. There are several solutions. It's a good question to ask to Mr Delvoye to know his own solutions.

    From my personal experience:
    -The chain must be first rate quality (with the welded middle bar in each chain link, such chain never jams) in high strength steel double hot dipped. It's a good (high) expense.
    -The locker must have a very careful design so the chain is falling inside in good order on a "grill", so it won't make any "knot", with easy accessibility.
    -The guides must be in a good plastic like Nylamid.
    -A water circuitry for cleaning the chain and the locker. A small pump for taking out the water if needed.

    We have also similar problem on warships, like any ship, and you don't ever want to imagine a chain jammed while dropping a 2 or more tons anchor... The problem of chains soiled and smelly from sludge is universal...rinsing and re-rinsing.

    Too many people throw haphazardly a poor cheap oxidated chain in the chain locker. It's curious to see how many people after spending a lot of money in a boat become cheap about security items like ropes, chains, anchors, extinctors and others.

    But I repeat that the advantage of putting a such weight in the right place is invaluable compared with the cons. A pounding 500 or more lbs of chain in the bow has adverse effects on longitudinal stability. The bow is far from the center of gravity (so the lever is big) with the major accelerations of the boat. It's better to keep it as light as possible, and there is already enough weight with furlers, anchors and others.
     
  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Personally I don´t like the idea of having the chain lkr. too far aft, due to the problems mentioned. Especially the chain pipe must be a nightmare, just to think about.
    Of course weight is a problem in the bow, but a clever designed (not "optimized" for charter) boat has the lighter windlass in front of the heavier chain lkr.

    I have no solution for the "stink" problem on such small boat.
    On my motoryacht we had a high pressure (140 bar Kärcher) outlet on top of the 12 bar seawater pump nozzle in the hawse pipe. The chain came in almost free of any sealife. The chain lkr. was rinsed with seawater only!!! Because freshwater and oxygen makes dead mussles and seaweed stink like hell. Seawater reduces that substantially.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  10. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

  11. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Many thanks for the links on the forum , Milan. Curious: always the same discussion, the same arguments I could read in the old French nautical mags of the 60's and in the yacht clubs. Curiously the detractors of the centerboard cruisers, when are pushed a bit, have to admit that they have never navigated on one, even an afternoon in front of La Rochelle...

    Meantime a lot of of centerboard sailboats navigate all around the world, from the Spitzberg to the Antarctic.

    Interesting links to 2 dutch shipyards. The centreboard 40 seems a bit complicated with the hydraulics of the centerboard and the water ballasts for traveling far.
     
  12. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Yes, it’s going on for quite some time and I don’t think it will end any time soon, similar to other evergreen themes, such as a heavy versus light displacement, long keels - short keels, monohulls – multihulls, e.c.t. :)

    I also prefer simplicity personally but others might think differently. Still, interesting to see different solutions.

    There are a lot of different types of shallow draft vessels in Dutch waters.

    The biggest group by far are traditional coastal vessels with flat bottoms and leeboards, (often large ships with length of 30 meters and more and draft of around 1 meter).

    http://www.tjalk.org/bontekoe-race2009/admin/2009/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX1txELE-gA&feature=player_embedded#!

    There are many modern yachts as well. (Ovnis are also popular). There is an association of Dutch Ovni ovners that organise group anual meetings and cruisings:http://www.ovnizeilers.nl/ Some Dutch sailors choosed Ovnis for interesting, long voyages, Edo Ankum & family for example, puted Ovni 435 to a good use sailing around Afrika, searching places far from civilisation:http://www.sallylightfoot.nl/en/category/boek-rondom-afrika/more-on-sallys-voyage/
    He started interesting project: http://www.sallylightfoot.nl/en/ , nice new 33m long ship: http://www.sallylightfoot.nl/en/design-and-vital-statisticsontwerp-en-gegevens-2/ ; http://www.sallylightfoot.nl/project-movie/

    Most Dutch designers have at least a few shallow draft types in portfolio.

    One of the first to adapt traditional Dutch coastal working boats to offshore cruising centerboard yachts was Max Gunning, navy designer, (similar background as you):), who after the WWII designed few unusual steel centreboarders. Alcyone II, (PDF in attachment), looks needs some getting used to but she was practical, sturdy cruising boat. With a thick bottom plate she could be beached anywhere, even on the sharp stones. Quite a few did extended voyages and at least one circumnavigated.

    I think that most numerous Dutch designed offshore centre boarders are from the pen of Dick Koopmans Senior. (His typical style is drawing in the attachment).

    http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/

    Then Dick Zaal, designer of mentioned Atlantics and many other interesting boats of different types:

    http://www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl/home/

    Van de Stadt has for most of their designs version with a shallow fin with a centerboard as an option.
     

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  13. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Milan, many thanks for the very interesting links. I've spent a good time exploring it. Dick Koopmans Senior designs look very alike Eugene Cornu and Francois Sergent designs, in the same tradition.

    Dick Zaal designs look traditional but the underwater hulls are definitely modern. I like very much Van de Stadt designs, many times very innovative, with a solid engineering and very beautiful set of plans. But you see immediately; there is a Dutch school of yacht design.

    Centre boards are born from the necessity of navigating in shallow waters, with big tides and hard seas (in North Britanny that goes from 7m -22 feet- to 12m -40 feet- in the great September's tides. At Pirou, Normandy, the sea apparently disappears, gone 3 miles away out of sight).

    If you miss the tide you won't come back, and will have to wait 6 hours more...Add the small harbors with tide and an omnipresent wind, and 180 days of rain/year. So you need a good solid boat, fast enough in light wind, stable enough to sail at good speed for the 30 knots winds that are very common with the small depressions, strong enough for the gales that can catch you at any moment. If you plan to navigate along the Channel and North Sea from Brittany to Norway in coastal cruising you absolutely need a such boat. That gives boats able to go practically anywhere. So when I read argumentation about seaworthiness and stability of a centre board I laugh in my beard...

    So it's interesting to see that with the same conditions of navigation, the Dutch and the French arrived to similar solutions.

    In the French Navy, we used to make the trials of the new boats in the Iroise Sea, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroise_Sea) just in front of Brest. A good solid 40 knots wind, 40 feet waves when the tide current is against the wind. At full speed, all the welds that are not good will crack, the too thin plates will bend, and any bad behavior will be detected. If the boat passes the test, it will be able to navigate in any weather and state of sea.

    For the incredulous:
    Very nice video taken of a winter gale at the coast close to Brest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk&feature=fvw

    The high sea tug Abeille Flandres (replaced by the Abeille Bourbon) in the Teignouse passage, in the Iroise Sea, going full speed in the waves.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DWZ2Awfhao&p=421751E173CC1355&playnext=1&index=1
    To give an idea of state of the sea; the Abeille Flandres is 63 m (206 feet) long. This boat was designed and beautifully built in Norway.

    It's a good place to test any deep blue cruising or racing sail boat...
     
  14. cthippo
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    cthippo Senior Member

    Allow me to sum up my thoughts on navigating those seas in two simple words...

    F*** THAT!
     

  15. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

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