My objections to Zero's new Health care plan.

Wardd your just pissing into the wind. You didnt read the document. I put a link to it in the first post.
Before you can argue that we already have "IT" you better look and see that what Obama's proposal entails is much more detailed than Medicare or Medicaid and it DOES provide for "end of life" councling and some options to keep the cost's to the taxpayer down by encouraging the elderly to accept the fact that some treatments are too expensive. They are not justifiable to the elderly.
Know what your talking about before you speak. It saves the rest of us a lot of time.

 

first off, obama hasnt put forward a plan just the idea, he left the details so far up to congress

the counciling is voluntary with your doc, the doc of your choice, the gov will pay for it if you want it, say your dying of an incurable disease the form is up to you and your doc, the gov will pay for it once every 5 years

if you go to a doc thats trying to kill you, well thats your choice, its still sorta a free country

it sounds that you have read what someone with an agenda had to say about the as yet unfinalized bill, o and which version of the as yet unfinalized bill?

to have a lot of crap in it at this point shouldnt be at all surprising, ill wait for something close to a finished product before i get too excited

 

Wardd, I repeat, if you dont know what your talking about, dont talk!

 

429
[Discussion Draft]
1 holders including clinicians, patients, re2
searchers, third-party payers, consumers of
3 Federal and State beneficiary programs.
4 ‘‘(B) QUALIFICATIONS.—
5 ‘‘(i) DIVERSE REPRESENTATION OF
6 PERSPECTIVES.—The members of the
7 Commission shall represent a broad range
8 of perspectives and shall collectively have
9 experience in the following areas:
10 ‘‘(I) Epidemiology.
11 ‘‘(II) Health services research.
12 ‘‘(III) Bioethics.
13 ‘‘(IV) Decision sciences.
14 ‘‘(V) Economics.
15 ‘‘(ii) DIVERSE REPRESENTATION OF
16 HEALTH CARE COMMUNITY.—At least one
17 member shall represent each of the fol18
lowing health care communities:
19 ‘‘(I) Consumers.
20 ‘‘(II) Practicing physicians, in21
cluding surgeons.
22 ‘‘(III) Employers.
23 ‘‘(IV) Public payers.
24 ‘‘(V) Insurance plans.


im at a loss here the above is page 429 as I copied it from your link

 

You went to the link!! You surprised me!
Plan on spending some time with it, and with those page numbers. Its killing me. I'm still reading.
I understand your at a loss. It aint easy.

I feel (429, 1-13) says the 'organization's' representatives will choose what happens to the victim based on all those committeemen and what they have to say about the victims condition, the sciences, costs and budgets involved.
IE: not the family or the Victim, but those representatives will decide.
Did you get that same feeling?

So...thinking about medicaid as it is right now, whatever the Government decides they can afford, the victim gets. The Victim is on medicaid because he has no other coverage. (why we have medicaid amazes me)

The Rest of us, who have coverage we chose, and pay for, don't want to be stuck with that garbage of Zero's just because a nation of Sheeple cant be responsible for themselves, and have such an overdeveloped case of Apathy they think we should feel responsible for all the irresponsible's.

Imagine you are a Congressman, and get this kind of stuff in the Official mail every day.
Then you get 10,000 more BS documents from Lobbyists and other Politically oriented seekers. Every day!
Then you might (maybe) get some criticisms from your constituents.

I think I know how I'd organize it, but can you imagine how many people you'd need as staffers? and Etc?

As I read that 'thing' I realized a lot of the written content is nonsense. Useless rhetoric.

You see those lines (Pp 429, 7 through 16) saying what the planners will have experience in?
Have you seen those kind of experienced people in Government?
Those are straw men right now. There's nobody in our Government with that kind of experience. I think he'd have to empty the Medical college's out put for 2010 to fill those positions.

If he gets that proposal through the senate, you can see just how many more bureaucrats are going to be on the job.

The last part I thought sounded good eh?
Someone to represent the following Communities.
Hmmmm just what does he mean by Communities, and who's going to pick the Representatives?

One last thought. Why don't the 535 have to live by the same Health coverage?
If they did, that thing would never have showed up on the horizon.

 

honestly no i didnt get that feeling, hospitals already have similar committees covering things like organ transplants and people in persistent vegetative states so those committees are nothing new

you rather have insurance bean counters and and people who's only job is going over your contract to find ways to not cover your condition?

a short story i read about casinao a casino manager was asked how they controlled underage gambling without annoying people checking for id, his answer was if your underage you can gamble , you just cant win ie when you try to collect they check id, sorta like insurance you can buy coverage but when it comes time to collect if you get sick then they go over your contract with a fine tooth comb to see how they can get out of covering you

such people really exist at insurance companys, put it this way the insurance company isnt going to make a profit paying for treatment but by denying treatment. if you belive otherwise you have more faith in your fellow man than i do

if you dont sit on the board or are the ceo of your insurance company then you dont really have a say in how they do business at least with the gov plan if you dont like it you can always vote the sob out, politicians listen to votes

most areas of the country are only served by 1-3 different insurance companys serving a majority, so there isnt much compition, you want health insurance you buy it from the local monopoly or go with out so they dont have much incentive to keep prices affordable, with the public option to compete with they may try harder to control premiums.

if you get insurance through your employer you have no choice, and remember your employer is looking for the cheapest deal possible, in most cases anyway

the business of insurance companys isnt treatment, its MAKING MONEY, and you/we bet our health on their willingness to actually cover us, at least the government isnt profit motivated or i hope not or ill vote the sob out

and that was a discussion draft of a bill not the bill as it will be passed, we still have to wait for that, as i said when its in its more final form then i may get excited, till then its so much hot air

and dont forget the lifetime limit that insurance companys will pay for, with the public option that wont be an issue , thats one of the reason for the public option, to cover people that dont have or cant get private coverage


a little history

To understand how our health care system developed in this way, we need to look back to World War II. As the U.S. became involved in the war, with the goal of ensuring that production of weapons and supplies for our soldiers would not be disrupted by labor disputes or cause economic problems such as increased inflation and war profiteering. The Board decided that it is was in our country's best interests to freeze wages and establish price controls, at least for the duration of the war. Unfortunately, the wage freeze made it much more difficult for employers to attract employees from a workforce that diminished as more and more workers were sent overseas for battle.

The National War Labor Board, perhaps realizing that it had created a monster, ruled that the wage freeze and price controls did not apply to fringe benefits like pensions and health insurance coverage. This gave employers the means to attract and retain employees. Back in those days, health insurance was a relatively cheap benefit, and the fact that it was (and still is) tax deductible was an added bonus for the employer.

Furthermore, labor unions strongly supported the NWLB ruling and encouraged businesses to offer health insurance benefits to their employees. Thus, employers began offering employee health coverage as part of their fringe benefits as a matter of course.

World War II eventually ended, but job-based health coverage did not. The workforce had grown accustomed to receiving health insurance coverage as an employee benefit, so that even after the wartime labor shortage ended, they continued to demand it - as we continue to do so today.

me again, had it not been for that we probably would have had public coverage long ago

 

People like this Ward A-hole will NEVER see reason. He's a teacher, probably, and bending any ear he can about what he feels is right. He's got a "Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot" bumper sticker next to his "Free Tibet", "Obama '08", "9-11 was an inside job", etc.. I get caught by these jerks sometimes, too, but our energies need to be spent on the youth that are being influenced by these dunces. Again;
1.) We can't change the self-rightious, bellicose pricks.
2.) We can't change the inner-city free-loaders, 90% of which
voted for "Hopey Changey" and think Corrine Brown is genious.
3.) We may be able to influence our kids, be better role-models and
figuratively kick the asses of teachers at PTA, sporting events and
activities.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=684_1237609826

The type of THING for which those game students
at LSU made this plaque are running our country now.
If they can see that she defeats grammar as we know
it, and all of our better sensibilities, there IS hope!

 

mark, very well reasoned and erudite

attacking the person always makes up for not critiquing the message

 

Ward your a little difficult to pin down.
I am certain the Health Care bill is socializing health care. It will provide a government run health care 'business' that will take our private health care off the market.
It says so in those line items I listed.

Reiterating; Americans are responsible for their own health care.

I'd like you to post your reasons for adopting Zeros Health care bill?

 

Warddd, It wasn't addressed to you. I was talking about you. Shoo now, you're late for your progressive worker's rally.

 

at the moment i dont have health care and cant get any with prexisting conditions and im a small struggling business man

but in a couple months ill qualify for medicare so i should be ok

thats one reason

and there are 50 million in the same boat and that number rising with layoffs

and im not wed to any idiology that is against my best interest

and if the insurance companys can compete and offer a product that people want then all is well, if not its the free market in action

just because there a post office didnt mean there couldnt also be a ups or federal express and you wouldnt want the post office to disappear because rural ares would not be served in some parts of the country

and as for me, im always willing to spend less if i get what i want

did you know we lost auto factory's to canada because canada has a national health care?


c&p
health care rates have been going up way more than inflation Families in the individual markets are seeing the same financial drains. Twenty-two percent of the household income for a middle-income family with individual coverage can be spent on health care. Some families in this category can spend up to 50 percent.

something has to be done or health care will be only for the rich and medicare

 

One of the biggest lies of the current bill surround options. If you are working for a company that self insures your plan will terminate in five years and you will have to join one of the federally mandated exchanges. If your current employer offers traditional insurance it must meet bureaucratic criteria for approved qualified plans and if the plan changes in any way, I know of almost none that don't on an annual basis, your plan will terminate and you will be forced into one of the approved exchanges. The coverage options will no longer exist. All plans will be one size fits all, period. You will have no options on deductibles. Currently I self insure except for long term or catastrophic care. This means I pay for my office visits and prescriptions but since I am healthy and take care of my weight, don't drink or smoke my premiums are lower. That will no longer be an option for me. You will be forced to show health coverage that fits the exchange criteria.

When I paid for my mothers medicare supplement she was able to choose any doctor or hospital she liked and her prescription plan was far better than the government plan offered now.

Insurance companies are prohibited from denying treatment based on life expectency in todays system. Pre-existing condition problems can be addressed without wrecking the entire system.

It seems to me that the entire thrust of the proposed system is to take away the "welfare" stigma attached to care for the poor. Currently they recieve free care regardless of their circumstances that far exceeds most health plans.

There are changes needed in the current system. They can made without adopting this disaster from Il Duce Obama.

 

Wardd, you said yourself the business of insurance isn't treatment, it is making money. The business of the govt. isn't treatment, it is getting votes. Why is that so hard to understand?

This is about advancing socialism. It is about redistribution of wealth. The ones pushing this won't be using the plan they are trying to ram down our throats. Isn't that a hint and a half?

It's about pushing class envy and racial strife to get more votes. It's about power.

It's not about healthcare.

They want everything to be as bad as possible so they can claim to be the answer. Look to us for your salvation! Doesn't that sound like heresy?

They want control, they want to decide what is good and what is evil. They want control over life and death. They want to be God. Kinda sounds like the Bible story of Satan, too. He wanted to "Be like the Most High".

Do you even question their motivation?

Lance.

 

((The business of the govt. isn't treatment, it is getting votes. Why is that so hard to understand?)), the point being you can vote the sob out if you dont like his stand on your health, you dont have that option with a private health care

salt i question every bodys motivation, im just not as paranoid as you seem to be..


salt do you make over $250,000 a year if not i dont understand your attitude.

when FDR did things to benifit the common folk his peers called him a traitor to his class, its the upper crust that wages class warfare the common folk are powerless and trying to make ends meet.

and just who is "they"?

no matter what you say it is us who elect "they"

i vote, do you?

and i have news for you , in order for an economy to function money has to flow , stop the flow, stop the economy, does that sound like redistribution?

when the top 1.5% has most of the money, which is the current situation, how does that help money flow and hense the economy?

if some of that money dosnt pass through our hands in some way or another how are we going to purchase things, and this is after all a consumer driven economy and right now not much is being consumed.


im terribly sorry the earth isnt flat and the sun dosnt go around the earth and things dont work the way you think they should

 

MICHAEL HILTZIK:
What's so great about private health insurance?
The bloody battle in Congress over a 'public option' ignores the insurers' role in creating the nation's healthcare crisis and their efforts to throttle reform.
Michael Hiltzik
August 3, 2009
Throughout the heroic struggle in Congress to provide a "public option" in health insurance, one question never seems to get answered: Why are we so intent on protecting the private option?

The "public option," as followers of the debate know, is a government-sponsored health plan that would be available as an alternative to, and in competition with, the for-profit health insurance industry, otherwise known as the private option.


Congress' own healthcare benefits: Membership has its privileges
On Friday, the House Committee on Energy and Commerce narrowly passed a reform bill incorporating a public option resembling Medicare. It was a bloody fight among members of Congress, some of whom believe that the public option will give the government unwarranted power over healthcare, and all of whom enjoy government-provided healthcare that's a lot better than what most of us get.

But the battle is just beginning. After the committee vote, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi warned that the health insurance industry will conduct a "shock and awe" campaign to kill the public option when Congress returns from vacation in September and starts debating the measure. We can expect to be overwhelmed with an industry ad campaign worth millions of dollars (remember Harry and Louise?) exhorting us to write our lawmakers to preserve the American way of healthcare.

So it's proper to remind ourselves what that American way entails. For if the insurers have proved anything over the last 15 years as the health crisis has gathered speed like an avalanche roaring downhill, it's that they're part of the problem, not the solution.

The firms take billions of dollars out of the U.S. healthcare wallet as profits, while imposing enormous administrative costs on doctors, hospitals, employers and patients. They've introduced complexity into the system at every level. Your doctor has to fight them to get approval for the treatment he or she thinks is best for you. Your hospital has to fight them for approval for every day you're laid up. Then they have to fight them to get their bills paid, and you do too.

One Wendell Potter reminded a Senate committee in June that health insurance executives had assured Congress in 1993 that they would work to secure universal medical coverage and end denials of coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. Then they moved heaven and earth to kill reform.

They've made the same promises now, Potter observed. But they're in an even better position to throttle reform. Mergers and acquisitions have turned the industry into a cartel of huge corporations.

"The industry is bigger, richer and stronger, and it has a much tighter grip on our healthcare system," he said. The last thing they want is a government program set up as their competition.

(((( Potter knows the insurers' ways because he was a top executive in the industry for 20 years. But the hard numbers bear him out. The two largest insurers, WellPoint and UnitedHealth Group, each acquired 11 other insurers between 2000 and 2007. They now control a total of 67 million "covered lives" (that's customers in health insurance-speak).)))

This consolidation has produced functional monopolies in communities across America. The American Medical Assn. (itself no great fan of reform) found in a 2007 survey that in 76% of the country, defined as its major metropolitan statistical areas, one insurer had a share of 50% or more of the conventional insurance market. This phenomenon gives the companies enormous power to drive up premiums and maximize profits.