My new baby! 6.8 Meter fiber over wood fishing boat !

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vulkyn, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. pedalingbiped
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 22
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: Seattle

    pedalingbiped Junior Member

    Hi Richard,
    I have a thick skin and most barbs don't penetrate it.:p
    It's all in good fun, except the comment I made about your ....

    Hi Vulkyn,
    Until this discussion I thought fiberglass was fiberglass !!! I didn't know there was a difference. It would be like asking a French Chef what's the difference between butter and margarine.:)

    Keep it up guys, I might post my build sometime in the near future. Thinking about one sheet skiff to get my feet wet:D
     
  2. mihari
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 72
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 30
    Location: Greece

    mihari Junior Member

    Hi all!!! Sorry to butt in. Just a quick question for Richard.
    Do you think that the building construction epoxy stuff is just as good as the allegedly "marine" stuff? Could you please elaborate on the differences? Are there any differences?
     
  3. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    Read carefully what you asked :D And don't steal stuff at work to build your boat with, it WILL sink.

    Vulkyn, the biggest problem with bilge pumps are the shitty motors they put in them. Imo these bilge pumps are designed completely wrong, you want a high volume low pressure water pump, not a high pressure low volume thing.

    Take a 1000 liter drum and fill it up, it's only a cube of water and fits into a wave easily that can break over a boats side. See how long it takes for the pump to remove that volume of water. Next see how often can such a wave spill over... Keep in mind if you get splashed well the first time, the boat sits lower in the water, after which it gets easier and easier, kinda like the beginning of the end.

    Those pumps are only good to pump out a mild splash.
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Welcome here.

    As long as the thread opener does not mind, we can discuss here whatever is related to the topic.

    Most likely your Ep stuff is NOT 100% solids epoxy resin. ALL the concrete enhancement stuff I am aware of, is not suitable for laminating! Do NOT use that for a boat building!!!!

    Although it is based on epoxy resin, it has nothing in common with a laminating resin! It just enhances the concretes properties in a very narrow, and defined field of use. Even then, it is a finicky creature.

    And ( to satisfy my curiosity) why would you spend about 20 times the money for a unknown material?

    Regards
    Richard

    Vulkin,

    the bilge pumps (as I mentioned) are not much of a concern, and they will be where they belong. Most probably you will have only one of them, 12V / 200ltr per hr.!
    That keeps your boat dry on a rainy day (maybe not entirely) and the batteries can cope with it for ages.

    A seagoing boat (which yours is not) has a different approach. But even a fully classed seagoing boat has not the setup to be held afloat by own pumps over a long time. The power is just not there.

    Do not fall into the trap of the "Unsinkable" boat. That is not on the market, and you would not be happy with it if it was.

    Boatbuilders skills and seamanship keep you alive out there, the rest is premature dream.

    ALL boats fail (and ALL supertankers have proven that), when you ask for more than the design provides.

    You have to know, and to accept, that your boat will fall in pieces when driven to a state above the design parameters.

    I recently won a bet without doing the "demolition derby", with one of the most respected, and best selling builders. Five hours at sea state five WOT, was what I asked for. He agreed that his junks are not capable to survive that.

    My boats are designed and built for 10³ cycles at sea state 6 continuous WOT without any destruction or deflection of the main structure above one twentyfifth of the production measurements. (which is already a severe failure)

    There are no bargains in our market, no freee meals, no free ride.

    We know it all. That sounds a bit pretentious, but it is not. Imagine all of our industry is looking for a tiny little bit of being ahead of the crowd.

    Once we have found it, and it is proven at sea( thats not a condition for all of them), we use it.

    your boat is a sunny sunday afternoon for us.... Bilge pumps are not part of it. They cannot save your *** when you screwed the day.

    A general cargo ship has somewhat in the 3000kW pumps just to go level when discarding. Impossible to hold it afloat for a day when the hole is more than only one sq ft.............

    Do not worry of being indestructable, or unsinkable. Die if its your time.

    Build a good boat which makes that less likely, thats all.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  5. mihari
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 72
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 30
    Location: Greece

    mihari Junior Member

    What I had in mind was a repairing epoxy (which is actual 2 part epoxy--I have used it for a canoe and it worked great), not a concrete enhancer. The price would be as low as half the price of the marine stuff.
    From what I have been reading West Systems' are the most respected resins, but are the cheaper stuff just as good?
    I am isnisting in this question, because even though it worked well for the canoe, I don't know if it will work as well for something that will be in the water all year round.
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    If it worked for the canoe (as a repairing stuff) it works on every megayacht as good and durable, no doubt.

    Make sure you have got EPOXY resin, not polyester! Make sure you have got a 100% solid content resin. The rest is a piece of cake.

    The question is, if you should not find a cheaper supply when it comes to larger items.

    The supplier you mentioned is a good one, but not cheap and not the best.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  7. Vulkyn
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 597
    Likes: 46, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 654
    Location: Egypt

    Vulkyn Senior Member

    Apex there is an Arabic saying that goes like this:

    "Fate can not be negotiated by caution" So when its time its time.

    Yet for me to learn and understand (which is my primary goal) i try to understand and prepare myself as much as i can.

    I know bilge pumps can not keep up in most situations but i would rather have some thing that gives me more time.
    There is no indestructible / unsinkable concept that i know and i am not trying to make my boat like that. But a few extra minutes might make the difference between running to shore or sinking.

    (BTW it doesnt rain ... almost ever!!!!)

    I understand your post its clear and i get what you are saying. I will try to keep things practical but my mind always lingers on the idea that fate prefers the ready. So im trying to make my boat less likely to sink (even if its by 1% or less).

    I found a link that helps you calculate the bilge pump output and as an example if you forget the drain hole a boat would take about 8 mins to sink even with the bilge pump. So i understand your point.


    -----------

    A quick update since things have been very hectic lately:
    1- Today im going to visit the ship yard where the white wood / polyster boat is being built. Ill take pics and update you when i get back.

    2- The local epoxy has a relatively high % of fillers (as told to me by a chemist in the field). It is also clear that almost the epoxy / fiberglass method is not known in Egypt (every one thinks im crazy) so im planning some tests next week just to get the builders sold on the idea.

    Now for me to make the test practical i would love some feedback on how to do it (like should i use just one plank, or make a mock up etc..) and i do not want to start using epoxy on my boat when builders think its a wrong idea and them messing it up since they dont use it at all.
    I was also aiming to make several tests with both local and imported epoxy to give the builders some experience with the different materials.

    ----------

    Again thanks for every one's help and feedback !! And i hope this thread can help others so feel free to ask beginners questions in here !! they are all welcome !
    (Heck i have embarrassed myself enough, other might learn from my shortcomings!!!! :D :D :D :D )
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    The layup procedure for Ep glass is absolutely the same as it is with poly resin. Only the mixing ratio is much, much easier with Ep.
    So, your boatbuilders have the experience to apply that.

    What is meant here?
    Really fillers, like microfiber, carbosil, microballons, cotton fiber and the like?
    Or was he saying it is 100% solid content? The latter would be nice, because that is what we need. A resin with filler is good for glueing only and cannot be used for glass layups or sheathing.

    Do your test parts as strips of about the same thickness you will have in your planks. Encapsulate all sides in resin (and probably glass), cure them completely. Put them under a tarp in the sun for a few days.

    Then break them under similar conditions.

    I am not against the use of a bilge pump (the opposite), but what you commonly find on boats in the 15 meter range is hardly capable of handling a leak of 10mm diameter just below waterline, that has to be known.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  9. Vulkyn
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 597
    Likes: 46, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 654
    Location: Egypt

    Vulkyn Senior Member

    Well im back after a loooooooooooooong day !!!!
    The boat is now ready for fiber glass ( i totally disagree and think its ready for firewood instead!). The boat has more gaps than Swiss cheese and gives me the titanic feel.

    I know understand concerns about white wood its rubbish... (aka Crap)...
    The yard wanted to put 2 layers of polyester raisin then paint it ...
    I do believe 3 is the minimum (please correct me if im wrong) just to make it survive at least 6 month.

    The boat is rather flimsy and feels a bit "woobely" (Needs better framing i reckon) but is just about composed so it doesnt fall apart in normal conditions but i dont think it will survive any hard hits.

    I attached the following pics:
    1- Label for the Polyster (its pink in color)
    2- Fiber (i believe its matt).
    3- The Mulberry wood (which i will use for my boats as planks as well as frames)
    4- Inside pics of the boat (Shoteya)
    5- Outside pic of the boat (Shoteya)

    Dont get me im as happy as a kid in Disney land, the amount of learning, traveling and experience means the world for me. I am now sure that im in the wrong field of business i should have been in boat building!

    Apex i will get the exact details for the epoxy (hopefully this weekend) and post it in more details.

    Thanks for the trial instructions and for every ones help !!

    Ill post more pics after i get some sleeeeeeeeep
     

    Attached Files:

  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    No comment on that "boat", you have said most of it..............

    The Mulberry looks good, if we can get that for the entire boat, we are happy.

    Yes that is mat, apart from abrasion resistance it does not add much value. Especially not when applied with poly resin.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  11. Vulkyn
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 597
    Likes: 46, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 654
    Location: Egypt

    Vulkyn Senior Member

    missed some pics :)

    How many layers should i ask them to do for the polyster with matt ? (I know but meh .. im trying to salvage the best out of that one!)

    A quick side question, is it practical to build speed boats with high HP (120+) engines using epoxy / fiber on wood? (Providing of course the proper wood, epoxy and fiber is used).
    Speed boats get battered a lot more than a slow fishing boat and can you still build boats with cabins as well ?


    --------

    On a side note i was talking to a friend who had a 21 meter boat, while discussing bilge pumps he told me his setup on his boat. He has 4 Battery operated bilge pumps and has 2 spare ones using small generators (fuel) and has 2 big mechanical ones that work directly via transmission from the 2 engines (clutch).
     

    Attached Files:

  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Thats overkill.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  13. Vulkyn
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 597
    Likes: 46, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 654
    Location: Egypt

    Vulkyn Senior Member

    Well he said he watched his share of boats sinking due to inadequate bilge pumps!!

    Awesome !!! i will check ur gallary !

    Im going to Alex to the other yard for some more learning :p
     
  14. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 1,854
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 896
    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member


  15. Vulkyn
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 597
    Likes: 46, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 654
    Location: Egypt

    Vulkyn Senior Member

    Yah i read that topic ! very informative !! Thx for the link !
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.