My boat was built to ISO 12217-1/2

Discussion in 'Stability' started by powerabout, Sep 9, 2011.

  1. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,903
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    what exactlly does this mean?
    and could you just present this to an authority if they request either stability booklet or a incline test
    Talking 40-45' cats here
     
  2. fcfc
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 779
    Likes: 29, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 399
    Location: france,europe

    fcfc Senior Member

    Essentially nothing. The important missing thing is the category.

    http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/ebb/tech_6.html

    Next : if they ask for a incline test, or a stability boolet, it means they did not recognize ISO rules. Otherwise, they would have asked the design category granted.
     
  3. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,903
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    Thanks FCFC
    it says Cat A with 8 crew
    to acheive this would the designer / builder ( production boat) have to have done a calculation or actual tests?

    Am I safe with 12 aboard and 1m waves?
    How would I know?
    or substutute gear for crew so maintain an all up weight or in sheltered waters I can carry more than they state?
     
  4. fcfc
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 779
    Likes: 29, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 399
    Location: france,europe

    fcfc Senior Member

    Do not know.

    If you have a CE mark, the checking has been done by a certification authority, not the designer nor builder. But the checking may have been done by calculation, or by mesure on a prototype, at the willingness of the cert authority. NB in the rule, when stability done by calc, worst case is worse than when done by measuring.

    At least from an insurance point of view, it is totally unsafe.

    Second if you are replacing tankage weight in the bilge by people sitting on top of roof, stability may suffer.

    Typically, CE marked boats that can handle it are multi certified, like A8/B10/C12/D14 or A8/B8 C10/D10 or whatever the boat can handle, and marked accordingly. (C and D certifications are cheap compared to A and B). see last page of that spec : http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agents/pdf/spec_l380_FR_UK.pdf for an example.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  5. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 2,765
    Likes: 159, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1306
    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    For 40-45' of cat A the certification includes assessment of stability (ISO12217), structure (ISO12215), windows/doors/hatches (ISO12216), watertight cockpits, systems, etc. Usually the drawings are submitted to certification body prior to construction, but certification itself is done once boat is built, for boat of this size. If the boat is not certified but there is a declaration that it complies to ISO12217, it should be proved by either calculations or tests. We do compliance check at design stage, but official check is carried out later by official surveyor.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,903
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    Thanks Alik,
    so what documentation should the builder be able to send you other than just an owners manual that says it is?
    I notice on the ISO/CE web site there is a large list of common fake certificates out there, some from well known manufacturers
     
  7. fcfc
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 779
    Likes: 29, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 399
    Location: france,europe

    fcfc Senior Member

    Per ISO, the only mandatory documention the builder must give to the buyer is the owner manual.

    Most fake certificate from well known manufacturers are not done by the manufacturers. Probably, they are not even aware of the fakes.

    EU law require that any boat imported in the UE has a valid CE marking, using rules valid at the time of the import.

    So any EU citizen buying a used 5 or 10 years Boston whaler or Bayliner on the US used market must have a valid CE certificate complying with rules effectives at the time of the import to register the boat in his country.

    And trying to legally certificate to current rules a boat made 10 years ago, may be even no longer build , is a so expensive task that some prefer to make a forged certificate.

    PS The powerboat used market is cheaper in US than in EU. Lowest price for a GB 42 on french market : 127 000$. On the US market 69 000$.

    If you try to import a used one now, you will need engines that pass 2011 pollution requirements (among other things). If it was imported 30 years ago, it would need to match 30 years ago pollution requirement (essentially nil), and of course you could still use it legally on EU waters.
     
  8. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,903
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    Next...
    Authority has accepted my Class A certificate of 8 persons, great but I want to carry more people in the harbour so I need a Class C cert to get the number to say 12 or more
    Can a NA reverse engineer a Class A or what?
    any sugestions?
    thanks
     
  9. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 2,765
    Likes: 159, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1306
    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    For 40' cat A look easy to get 12 people; there might be some reasons why they got only 8.
     
  10. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,903
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    Its a Leopard and there's almost no possibility of a conversation with R&C they just refer you to a dealer
    maybe I should ask Gino Morelli as he designed it or the NA he used??
    The 8 includes a max load of 2720kg and each person @75kg so 600
    plenty left for personal effects/food/stores/ etc


    Cant see why that cant convert to non overnite passengers who dont have 75kg of gear, clearly it could
    I just need to get a CE certificate or from a NA that says it can??
     
  11. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 2,765
    Likes: 159, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1306
    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    Usually this has nothing to do with overnight capacity, but derives from stability requirements.
     
  12. fcfc
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 779
    Likes: 29, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 399
    Location: france,europe

    fcfc Senior Member

    Stability requirements for sailing multihull in category D or C are very low. (at least from what I have understood in a quick look).
     
  13. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 2,765
    Likes: 159, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1306
    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    Yes they are, but there downflooding height and flotation requirements covered by same stability/flotation standard.
     
  14. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,903
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    Sure so when I swap out 1000+kg allowance for the first 8 of gear why cant I swap in 8 more people I would still be infront?
     

  15. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 2,765
    Likes: 159, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1306
    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    If it was our design I would tell You; in this case sorry but do not know. Only original designer knows all limitations of boat.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.