My Boat Now!?

Fully concur with Tolly Wally!
And size matters! Do´nt go too small, you will regret it.
There is a old saying that EVERY boat is just one meter too short, that is valid up to 50 meters.
Make a proper "Book of requirements" and use the advantages of the second hand market now!
look here for some further reading:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/design-spiral-where-start-building-boat-28580.html

Regards
Richard

 

Good morning all,

TollyWally, all great points. Building vs. buying... new vs. used... large vs. small... etc. I need to narrow things down and make some decisions. And Richard, I reviewed the outstanding link you forwarded... it is good advice to write things down (otherwise, I seem to perfectly fit the profile of an amateur spiraling [out of control]!

Right now I'm taking my daughter to L.A., but will be back later this evening and will begin writing (prioritizing, specifications, needs, etc.). I'll of course share my progress.

Thanks to all for the great advice and info,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

CAUTION: Bad attitude alert!* Read at your own risk!!!

Also, hate to respond to my own post, but here goes --

Hello All,

Everyone who has responded to my initial and subsequent posts has been great. Thank you for all of the information, insight, advice, and humor you’ve provided.

But the thought of me as an amateur spiraling out of control has kind of gotten my goat in a few ways. I’m kind of frustrated. I admit I am an amateur at boat designing… but I’m a professional [potential] customer looking for a product that seemingly no one can provide.

In a way, the spiral aspect is true; with this post I’ve come full circle and am spiraling 'round and 'round right back to my original questions. I want to share that, although I’m not a professional nautical engineer, I have had boats my entire life (always runabouts or small cabin cruisers). I just sold my beloved classic 1960 14’ Glasspar Marathon runabout last week and some of my reasons for starting this thread might have been brought on or related to classic postpartum boat depression (i.e., I’m in that dreaded “in between boats” category) – although I still have my trusty 17’ Wilderness Systems Epic kayak ready to go at any given time if/when necessary.

Maybe I just need to go kayak Black Canyon. Maybe that's all I really need to do... and then I'll feel better (for awhile).

But, as I’ve been thinking about our interactions in this thread, it has occurred to me that this thread is kind of a microcosm of my past fifteen years… dead end after dead end… right back to where I started.

I have been thinking about every aspect of what I need, want, and can afford since 1994… I have everything written down (in my brain).

I need a boat that can be pulled by my Ford Ranger.
Thus the boat needs to be approximately 10 to 22’.

A given sailboat or powerboat could work, as I’m going to be puttering around the Sacramento River Delta, Flathead Lake in Montana, and possibly a few other places.

But I don’t want a boat that looks just like everyone else’s boat.
I’ll know it when I see it, and I’ve seen some that I like.
I don't want the same Bayliner or Columbia that everyone else has.

Through the years I’ve looked at hundreds of thousands of vessels on craigslist, ebay, and others – I know what’s available and I know a fair price (at least as I define it). I check daily.

I could just purchase a used Venture 17 sailboat for $1,000. That would get me on the water soon. That’s an option. It's within my financial means, I could tow it, [it's easily managed by an oldster], and I could... um, start learning.

There are often some Balboa 20’s available for about $2,000 to $3,000. A possibility. A Balboa 16 is a real boat, but pretty rare -- missed a couple opportunities in the past couple of years.

My first choice, however, is a sailboat very similar to the old Happy II. When the original sailor (I forget his name) wrecked the first Happy in his round the world adventure, some locals constructed the new Happy II in [I don’t know – a weekend?]. I don’t know how much they charged him back then to do that. But in this day and age, with CAD and precision cutting instruments, how difficult [and expensive] could it be to put together a damn 12 foot aluminum boat with a deck?

For comparative purposes, a brand new spectacular Montgomery 15 costs about $12,000.

I’ve heard a million (well, seems like a million) people tell me why it can’t be done. Out of all the boat designers, naval architects, welders, and other professional mariners out there, is there anyone who can answer my question and address my need? Could you, and if so, how much would it cost, design and construct in aluminum, a damn 12 foot boat that looks a lot like the cool and famous Happy II?

$116,000 is too much!

I’m a potential customer looking for someone who can meet my needs. As TollyWally said, “a lot of people are waiting for me to show up.” They want me to buy their boat. They have some great boats out there, but I want them to build me the boat I want. Who can do that? At a fair price?

I've visited many websites for "custom boatbuilders." But they're not really building custom boats... instead, they offer various customizations (floorplans, sailplans, etc.) of their own boats/designs.

I could drive ninety minutes to the south and purchase a brand new Montgomery 15 or 17 for less than $20,000. And it would soon be in my driveway ready for Spring; I think they even deliver -- it could arrive by Saturday. I could do that. But as I’ve spent over fifteen years thinking about things, prioritizing, etc., that option is twelfth on my list.

Instead, a 16 foot Gray Swan (motorcruiser version) in aluminum is my second choice. Out of all the boat designers, naval architects, custom builders, welders, and other professional mariners out there, is there anyone who can answer my question and address my need? Could you, and if so, how much would it cost, use Mr. Fisher’s design (I would purchase the plans of course) and construct in aluminum, a damn 16 foot Gray Swan motorcruiser version?

$70,000 is too much [for me] for a 16’ boat!

I’m holding out hope that Tad’s new 16-footer will be as cool as I think it might be and as reasonably priced as I think it should be. I might end up being the one who purchases it.

So having spiraled out of control for the past 24 hours (story of my life), let me return full circle to my original questions:

1) Can you build something similar to Happy II at a reasonable price? Or not?
2) Can you build something similar to the Grey Swan motorcruiser at a reasonable price? Or not?

The more I’ve been thinking [accounting for a million internal and external factors], it’s possible that the right solution for me is The Tank. It’s within my financial means, small enough to tow, and I would have the final say over every aspect of the project. I wouldn’t have to hear the expert tell me how all of my ideas are stupid or would never work or that I instead should purchase his boat -- or that it will cost $116,000. Even I could glue together some wood planks at 90-degree angles. This will probably be my decision if and when I finally decide [find out] that there is no market in the USA for small, reasonably-priced, microcruisers for the masses.

Although most of my questions [selfishly] relate to my own personal needs and wants, part of my question relates to the overall state of the industry: I see a lot of spectacular vessels being designed for multimillionaires, but who out there is meeting the needs of the common man...

A C-Dory for $40,000? Are you kidding me?

Right now I'm thinking, "If you want a job done right…"

Talk with you all soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

*I’ll blame half my bad attitude on the vodka – should’ve stuck with rum. The other 50% of my bad attitude is [never mind]!

 

Are there some pictures of your dreamboats available, to get a impression what you are talking?
I have no clue about the names of boats you posted, so cannot imagine what you mean.

Regards
Richard

 

Hi Richard,

Here are some links to photos of a few of my dreamboats.

A. Happy II (I only know of two pictures [does anyone know of any more?]):

Go to the Famous Small Sailboats page:
http://www.microcruising.com/famoussmallboats.htm
You can find the links to "Happy" and "Howard Wayne Smith" or just click on:
http://www.microcruising.com/Graphics/hap2a.jpg
http://www.microcruising.com/Graphics/hap2b.jpg

There were two Happy sailboats: the original was wrecked and replaced by the subsequent Happy II. For some reason, I'm not that enthralled with the original, but I love the looks of the second.

The Happy II is presently in a maritime museum in Australia. I actually tried contacting them once via e-mail to inquire regarding possible purchase! Based on their non-response, I'm guessing they're not looking to sell!

B. Grey Swan (motorcruiser version):
On the Selway-Fisher site:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/

Follow the links to Pocket Cruisers up to 16' (or just go to):
http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm

Go down the page until you get to Grey Swan. Right underneath the sailboat version is the motor version. This picture also appears in my original post, touched up a little to appear in gray [aluminum] and white [wood]. I'm not sure how many of these have been built -- I would like to see a photo of a completed one.

C. Maddy 18:
McNaughton's Home Page: http://www.macnaughtongroup.com
Boat picture at http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/maddy_18.htm

D. Bateau Site
http://www.bateau.com
(Richard, you had kindly previously forwarded this link, thank you). The small 14' sailboat or even the 18' houseboat, each with extensive enhancements/modifications, could be a possibility.

E. Timbercoast 22':
http://bartenderboats.com/for-sale.html

F. Montgomery 15 & 17:
http://www.montgomeryboats.com
Follow the links to each boat -- lot's of great photos, especially construction photos. Very reasonably priced, attractive, and well-built small sailboats IMO.

G. Heather pictured below as an enclosure (picture of small pilothouse cruiser found on a diffferent forum).

H. 12' Microcruiser
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80876
There was a great discussion on Woodenboat forums regarding small microcruisers and motorsailers. Lots of photos and good [and bad] points, mostly addressing size. My second enclosed pic below is a cool boat from that thread -- I don't know the name/manufacturer of the boat... just that it's cool.

I. There are plenty others out there [on the web and in my mind]!

In general, I guess I really like the raised deck look... I like an enclosed pilothouse or cockpit (don't know if it's a safety/insecurity issue or if I just don't like to be pounded by cold water and baked in the sun)... I like the idea of quality over quantity... I like unique vessels with class... I want a great interior (not just a bench that can be made into a bunk, but rather, where being inside would be like being in a submarine, with LCD lights, etc. [somebody on one of these forums coined the term, "micronautics," addressing the interior of the vessel -- where every inch counts]. Yet, I know you can only fit so much into 16 feet.

J. Finally, Bolger's Brick (one ill-fated version shown in my previous post was known as "The Tank." You can do a web search for much more info, but here's a start:
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sites2.htm

Bolger seems to stress function over form, that is, they work, but many consider them ugly. I actually am looking for something that works for me and is unique -- so it actually kind of fits some of my criteria. Plus, it can be made in almost any size, is relatively cheap, relatively easy to build, and towable. It (The Tank version) is actually high on my list of considerations.

Talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Ahh, yes, understand.

Well these are really "pocket cruisers".........

I do´nt see why a Maddy or Grey swan should´nt be done for more than 15.000€ all incl.
When you look at my Gallery (click my name), you´ll find a "Admirals Launch" under construction, in one of my boatshops in Turkey. She is all solid Mahogany and Teak lumber, glued with Epoxy and sheathed outside with glass. She goes for 16.000€ right through the door. That is a boat of 6,50 loa, roughly to the hull form of Atkins "Revelation". (22´day cruiser)
http://www.atkinboatplans.com/

If you really do´nt find a builder willing to do such a boat for you at a decent price, I would do it for you.
A 40´container is about 3000$ to east coast US at present. (cabin top installation, or rigging her up must be done there of course)

Do´nt get me wrong, I do´nt volunteer for a workload, nor do I need such a order. Just "in case"...................

And: Mc Naughtons Bufflehead would be my favourite! Though a bit more costly due to size, that would make a unique, and fine pocket cruiser with a "face".

Regards
Richard

 

Richard, you're my hero!

Thanks for being the first (and maybe the only?) to step forth and offer to build me the boat of my dreams at a reasonable price...

I reviewed your gallery and you do beautiful work. I'm not going to leap forth right now as I want to keep exploring all options and what will work out best for all of us. But the offer you forward is certainly an appealing option I'll seriously consider as I narrow things down toward my final decision!

As I've searched the planet for my dream boat (gee, that's either an epic quest -- or a pathetic state -- I'm not sure which!), I've actually considered getting work done overseas and crating to the states. Last week I clicked on a link from apolloduck and investigated the possibility of purchasing an old lifeboat hull [I think these were in Thailand] (that are relatively inexpensive and could be crated here). They have great hulls and I would just need to complete the rest of the boat.

The aforementioned old lifeboat pics are below... I haven't contacted them... just keeping all options in mind.

Thanks again for your offer/ideas; you made my day!

Talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Whoops!

Almost forgot! Tad, you have also offered your help toward helping me obtain my boat, and I thank you for that. I am anxious to see the new sixteen-footer you are working on. Do you know when preliminary concepts/drawings/etc. be available for review?

I admire your work also!

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Welcome mate,

any comment on the Bufflehead?


Ja, just "the rest of it".................

You know that is about the same phrase everytime before the catastrophe starts.

A restoration, "fixing her up", rebuild, or how so ever you name the crippled child, ends up usually above the cost of a newbuilt!
Being in Thailand and giving it a shot would be a different pair of shoes though.

 

Richard,

Heh, heh, very true! I guess buying the hull and finishing "the rest of it" is kind of like saying, "here's the wheel, I'll go ahead and finish the rest of the car."

I like the Bufflehead, certainly tugs have their own personality. Atkins has a lot of great designs.

So many boats... so little time!

I'm going to sign off now for the rest of the day and officially begin my New Year's festivities!

Here's wishing everyone a spectacular 2010!

Talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

The TimberCoast (Bartender Boats) 16' is a ways off yet...I have been instructed to work on the 27' first. Do not contact Bill asking for plans....the design does not yet exist. But...when it does...it may look something like this....alongside the TimberCoast 22' for comparison.





Alternatively there this new 16' round bottom full displacement cruiser. Beam is 7'6", draft about 23", displacement...lots, power in the 12-16Hp range turning a 12" prop. The engine will be under the vee berth. The model still needs lots of detail, forward hatch, bitts, cockpit coaming cap, handrails, etc.

 

Wow Tad!

Both vessels are spectacular. But with the new 16' round bottom full displacement cruiser, you have met 98% of my criteria (and the other 2% could be easily met with some planning and consultation)! At the very least, I have a new screensaver I can look at every day... At the most, it pretty much fits all of my criteria [for my dreamboat]!

a) it's towable;
b) it's between 10 and 22';
c) it's beautiful;
d) it has an enclosed pilothouse [or enclosed cockpit];
e) it could easily handle the delta and Flathead Lake; and
f) [here's the question I'm afraid to ask] it's between $20,000 to $30,000?*

*thus, affordable for the common man (i.e., me)?

If a-f are true, I'll buy the first one! Let's talk further soon!

Having looked at every boat on the internet for the past 15 years, I can tell you that you have a winner here!

Talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Nice boats TAD!

 

If you like the aluminium Bartender, why not build one in plywood? They're not an exceptionally hard thing to build, are fairly light and a very good boat.
They also look great.

Regards, Andrew.

 

Gotta get me some boats and hoes.

So you have been planning since 94 to buy a 2 bit pocket cruiser?

Slow and steady doesnt win the race man.

In the space of a few months, i have decked out a garage with enough marine ply, epoxy and tools to build just about any boat. Have given up on CAD, made a shitload of prototypes out of clay and balsa wood and will design and build my pocket cruiser for under $10000.

Just do it and stop your american dream bs..

sheesh