MX Next-new dinghy design

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. maxstaylock
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    maxstaylock Junior Member

    I am impressed that it looks a little like a proper boat, on the water, I had my doubts. Thankyou also for some longer video shots, much less annoying than the first effort.

    Next box this boat needs to tick for me, can it go upwind, and will it be developed enough to easily beat, say, an RS100 round a course?

    Thanks for the entertainment.
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    MX Next

    ==================
    No, it's much more than that. On the one hand you have a very experienced, innovative and enthusiastic designer that believes strongly in his new boat. He believes so much in it that he thinks other people would like to see videos of the boat during on-going development and he provides them as he can. But instead of appreciation for that, the reaction seems to be that Vlad isn't doing it their way and so they feel unleashed to make completely uninformed comments about a boat they have NEVER SAILED. I'm sick of the self-righteous BS spouted by people who have never sailed this boat and yet talk as if they know what the development issues may be, having just finished 30 days of sailing the boat every day-just incredible nonsense!!!!
    Vlad has tried to share his enthusiasm for this first class, innovative new boat and yet has been treated as an idiot by many of the uninformed, inexperienced Anonymous Posters( and some "normal" posters) on this thread-it's terribly unfortunate and inexcusable.
     
  3. mudsailor
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    mudsailor Junior Member

    Maybe if the MX team shared some 'real' feedback, rather than just say 'it's great' and you are an idiot for even questioning us......
     
  4. Andy
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    Andy Senior Member

    It's basic physics - this will get hosed by an IC. The IC has more length, righting moment, similar weight, less drag, etc etc etc. Fine build a new boat and promote it. It's not cool to go around saying that every boat will look like your boat in 20 years time when a whole host of more successful designers have gone in other directions. When I watched that last video, all I could see was an overcanvassed boat lacking in righting moment and control ploughing through some actually very small waves. I was watching Musto Skiffs in 4 - 5 foot chop last weekend and they were bow up, flying. Every time the bow of the MX goes down, wetted surface and drag goes up, increasing the likelihood that it will stay down as the tall rig pushes the bow down. I do get the idea that the boat shouldn't get stopped by waves so as to gain aerodynamic stability, but the rig doesn't look stable anyway and is constantly overpowered and 'ragging' (read:'dragging'). Add to that the fact that water is 784 times more dense than air, then the notion of a hull that ploughs through waves instead of riding over them seems like a double hit. Cats have the bows they do to try to avoid tripping over them and pitchpoling and are subject to a whole host of other problems resulting from the width and power of the platform/height of rig, so that's not a useful comparison. The reverse bow on monos is, to all intents and purposes, a fashion statement. The ones that do have them seem to still have enough waterplane inertia to keep the bow out most of the time, so it seems to be more of a 'safety at the last' effort. There may also be windage gains too. This boat doesn't seem to have that, it just ploughs. It doesn't have enough righting moment to get upwind, has too much sail, too little mast support, and only large and very experienced sailors will be able to hold on.

    Julian Bethwaite said of the RS900 in the skiff trials last year that they didn't do their homework. When I look at all the brilliant design, execution and efficiency of all the IC's (to be on display on Loch Lomond at the Euros this year), and then read all the marketing nonsense about the MX, I really feel for people like Chris Maas, Steve Clarke, Phil Morrison and others who have done theirs, as opposed to the MX. If I strap a rocket to an F1 car and tell everyone that I am right and they are wrong, does it make me the world's best F1 designer? No, it's an insult to Ross Braun.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  5. Andy
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    Andy Senior Member

    And I honestly think that the reason they weren't flying the kite (apart from the evident mast inversion they were getting in light winds) was that the boat wouldn't be able to handle it. The Mustos were fully pumped, kites up in 18 to 24 knots of wind, and there were only a couple of capsizes. Skill.
     
  6. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    The Blaze dinghy had adjustable wing widths, lighter helms could have a wider boat. However we found that it was much easier to sail with the narrower wing setting. In part because the toestraps were very floppy when wide. You want boat and helm to move as one, not independently. Also the wide wing meant ones feet were outside the gunwale so even though they gave away stability most light helms were quicker sailing a narrow beam boat. Finally you need to have things to brace against when gybing, and of course handholds when righting after a capsize.

    The RS300 had a long wave piercing bow, fixed curving wings and is very quick. But also very hard to sail, so RS developed the 100 to appeal to a bigger market

    This hiking dinghy looks good, more racey than the RS100

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bpbyUVGOCZY

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
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  7. Andy
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    Andy Senior Member

    Agree on the D1 - almost a perfect boat (a shame they didn't let a stylist loose on it though, maybe something they could revise in the future without mucking up the OD nature of the boat). It's worth noting too that the D1 doesnt drag it's wings in waves like the RS100 and the MX clearly does. Incidentally all the sailors I spoke to who sailed both D1 and RS100 preferred the D1. The 100 seems to still have substantially outsold the D1 though - goes to show what a lower price, the RS marketing machine and a nicer looking boat can do against a boat which is by all accounts a better sailing boat. I Think your comments about wide wings on singlehanders are spot on too - the canoes that tried them found them unusable IIRC. I think that's why they stuck with planks. On any 'wobbly' boat theres definitely a limit to the beam if you're hiking, a lesson people who have tried upscaled moths have had to learn. I'm surprised the MX team didn't go with a trapeze - for all the hoo-ha about innovation they missed out possibly the most significant speed producing design innovation of the last century.

    Btw Richard, have you got some more build and sailing pics of your Stealth dinghy? I always liked the design - maybe a new topic if you can be bothered to dig something up? ;-)
     
  8. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    yes sure, but please email me on my normal email, not a pm and I'll send you something

    Richard Woods
     
  9. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    Speculation is one thing, negativity is another. This discussion gives an amusing insight into human nature - badmouth everything you don't understand, everything that's new, that challenges the excepted dogma.
    IC is great because it's old and well known, MX is bad because it's new and nobody understands what it is.
    Relax and wait a bit - you might see the light. If you can see...
     
  10. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    It would've been nice Andy if you knew something about boat design before posting silly comments...
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    MX Next!

    Thanks for commenting, Vlad! You're 100% right..........
     
  12. Andy
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    Andy Senior Member


    Enlighten me then, and everyone else for that matter.
     
  13. Andy
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    Andy Senior Member

    Doug, enlighten me too? Oh and people who live in glass houses etc etc. When was the last time you a) sailed a hih performance boat and b) actually built something, instead of evangelising about things which various people have called you out for not understanding? This place is as near to peer review as its possible to get. I look forwards to hearing yous and Vlads comments on my piece above.
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==================
    Right. Please explain this in detail........
     

  15. Andy
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    Andy Senior Member

    I will. But while I'm digging that up please enlighten me as to how my view of the MX is not correct (and quit dodging the question)
     
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