Multi 50 Design Rule: no vertical lift!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Come on Doug, I was giving you a little ribbing thats all, of course the French engineers are very familiar with lifting foils and their usage thats the whole point. It was French sailors conversant with the commercial aspects of multihull racing that wrote the rule in the first place to allow teams on a lower budget to compete. The Escoffier's particularly who have been involved at every level of French Multihull racing are great supporters of the Multi50 rule and have sold their boats on often at generous prices to encourage the development of the class. You of all people should understand financial limitations since you have had to abandon some of your projects due to those very constraints.

    Many of the Multi50 teams operate on the tightest of budgets even having to defer basic structural repairs and upgrades to their boats until money becomes available so your whole concept of spending "just a little more money" to add lifting foils to existing or new platforms is optimistic at best.

    Sponsorship money is not simply rained upon these teams for them to put the latest gear and upgrades on their boats it's a commercial exchange the sponsors get exposure on the competitors boats and are talked up by the sailors themselves, lower tier sponsors can only afford to spend less on advertising so it's a symbiotic relationship but has to exist within it's means. Having dealt with some motor racing teams in my own business on a sponsorship basis with my business buying advertising space on their vehicles I have had first hand experience with the sponsorship bandwagon.

    One day as an exercise you should practice writing some letters to potential sponsors for a sporting endeavour you will be surprised and shocked how tight fisted they are and how even with a positive answer you will have to fight to prove the worth of every dollar they spend. They will ask very tough questions about RoI (Return on Investment) that will leave you feeling somewhat deflated it demands a high level of business acumen to present your business plan in a positive light. The best semi professional and professional teams will come to your business with a slick presentation and be able to present accurate numbers on how many eyeballs will view your advertising. They understand that it's a business transaction and will do their level best to present your product to the potential customers in a positive light.

    I know you dont want to hear this because your dream is to see every race boat of every class fitted with lifting foils of some sort. I actually admire your one eyed determination but it was you who asked the question there is no point railing against honest answers as if it's going to change the world. Maybe if you dont want to hear any answers you should not ask open ended questions on a public forum.
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Actually, I answered my own question: The Multi 50 rule prohibits lifting foils.
    Now, you're saying that a "device" that is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to improve speed and handling is prohibited because thats what the sponsors want?
    That's curious given the MOD 70's, BP5, Sodebo, Idec and others-all operating on sponsor dollars.
    Something just doesn't add up( even with both eyes wide open!).......
     
  3. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Firstly the disclaimer

    I'm really only responding because this is the net and the information goes to people other than Doug. As debating the issue with Doug is like discussing evolution with a pastor from the bible belt it's hard to have a rational discussion. However the base question and issue is worth addressing from a certain viewpoint so here goes. Please note I'm not denying that curved foils do provide an improvement in the boats performance when designed as part of and integrated into the whole package. I'm just noting that there is a legitimate business reason why every class and rule does not allow their use.

    Here goes:

    There are only so many sponsor dollars floating around the top teams tend to suck up most of the money. MOD70 is an exercise in cost control and an attempt to keep sponsors involved by reducing the drain on their advertising budget. They are not necessarily growing the pie and the bulk of class growth will most likely come at the expense of teams sailing in the Imoca Open 60 (a development class where the budgets have soared ever skywards). The MOD70's have curved foils but all the teams use the same design and maximise the sponsors dollar by having access to a communal parts bin. There will be more of a focus on the skills of the skippers and crews and the one design formula will provide close racing in port and across oceans.

    Multi50 exists as a rule that focusses on keeping the boats modern but simple to provide a lower cost platform that can be made attractive to lower budget sponsors with limited cash to spend. Keeping expensive gear off the boats in the Multi50 class is done to keep the costs down and to prevent obsoleting a large portion of the fleet entirely. To utilise Doug's own words the decision has been made with "eyes wide open" to minimise the cost of entry and maintenance. Lifting foils can and do break as witnessed by the failures in the MOD70 Musandam/Oman sail. Sean Langman has also recently broken a lifting foil on his ORMA60. Sponsor value in a given rule is not necessarily increased by being at the leading edge of technology, outright record breakers need to be the fastest overall, boats that compete in a class instead need to be competitive with each other and put on a good show. It's a classic case of do viewers watch and admire the golfer and his skills or obsess over what clubs the golfer uses. There is no doubt that there is a small group of people who care what golf clubs a player uses but most people have no or limited interest. A race is a race and as long as the boats are built to adhere to the framework of the rule then the race is interesting.

    Lets examine the record breakers and their business cases:

    Francis Joyon and IDEC exist on a shoestring budget he has provided great value for the sponsors dollar delivering tons of exposure. His funding is based on patronage rather than sponsorship as he has said himself in the past. He has tweaked up the platform in every way he can to prolong its life. You can bet the upgrades have come off the back of the round the world success and on the understanding he will have another crack at the record if Thomas Coville on Sodebo betters it.

    BP5 - The team is funded by a bank (enough said really) which hasn't held back on the best of everything. Pascal Bidegorry appears to have taken it in the neck for waiting too long to take off on the great adventure of the Jules Verne Record and failing due to the unforseen circumstance of a broken daggerboard and provide the RoI they were looking for. They demand value for money out of their investment and want maximum exposure. They have not been stingy on anything and have put together the best crew with the best equipment with the express goal of taking every record.

    Sodebo - Another record breaking boat (see a pattern here) Thomas is virtually required to have another crack at the Solo round the world record. It's the big cheese and every sponsor wants it if possible. The upgrades on Thomas's boat are addressing every area to attempt to give him the maximum chance (weather willing) of taking the record. Round the World attempts are expensive investing in having the best of everything is worthwhile and no attempt will be made to better the record unless someone else steps up and improves it.

    America's Cup - It's the Auld Mug a trophy that billionaires would throw their grandmothers under a bus for any wonder they are spending money like water. The whole shebang is funded by Larry Ellison out of his own (substantial) pocket. The French team which is privately funded has called it quits before building an AC72 because they know they cant afford it. The NZ team is hanging in by the skin of it's teeth hoping it can take the cup. The only reason why they can hang in there and be competitive is the government support on top of large amounts of private funding. Luna Rossa is interesting Ernesto Bertarelli has some finger in the pie and no real accounting for how they are funded nothing like egos throwing around cash (the results are interesting though).
     
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  4. yves
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    yves Junior Member

    About foils, Coville and team have had them brought forward a bit on Sodebo :

    http://www.sodebo-voile.com/actu/news/824-INTERVIEW-Benoit-Cabaret-C-est-une-premiere.html

    But analyzing the possibilities to do it, they in fact decided to bring the whole amas forward (by around 60cm) and not the foils casings.

    By the way Corley, have you some info on Coville going for a new attempt this year ? The site doesn't say anything.

    Otherwise your analysis regarding the Multi 50 class and relationship to sponsorship money is I think spot on.
     
  5. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Coville is certain to have another crack at the round the world solo record it may not be this year but it will happen. He took a break from Sodebo to compete on the VO70 Groupama. He has to be one of the coolest guys in multihull racing a scholars brain with an athletes body and endurance. Looking forward to him having another crack at the record his sportsmanship even in failure is an inspiration.
     
  6. yves
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    yves Junior Member

    If he does it this year, the joint exposure with the Vendée could be a win win situation for both events more than anything else I think.

    Otherwise must say I'm not a major fan of him (more to do with some kind of cheesy "intellectual" remarks he has sometimes), but yes he must be a cool guy, below a quite detailed video about a Sodebo visit that I never saw before :
    http://blogs.lexpress.fr/aularge/20...eek-end-visite-de-sodebo-avec-thomas-coville/

    Quite amazing the technology on this thing ... around the end it shows some automatic release blocker system for instance (but he didn't have them during the Jules Vernes attempts)..

    Also I don't remember following the route du rhum where Cammas was on G3, Joyon on Idec and Coville on Sodebo, Coville finished third, but do you remember how it went between him and Joyon, just speed difference ? some major option ?
     
  7. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Coville and Joyon use the upsideup system on their boats for sheet release it also interfaces with the autopilot. It's a pretty good way of automating release in an emergency when they are not at the helm. I'm looking to install the basic version on my trimaran when constructed certainly a boon when singlehanding and gives you that extra chance of avoiding capsize in an emergency. I guess Coville could be viewed as a bit cheesy at times but he has a great approach to the sport and the pressures it brings.
     
  8. yves
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    yves Junior Member

    Ah yes looked the upsideup website and it is indeed the box we see in the video.

    Found below article where he announces he will do his next attempt in 2013, but not in 2012 so as to not "pollute" the Vendée Globe and do other records (Cadix San Salvador in particular) :
    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-sport/...-coville-repartira-sur-un-record-du-monde.php
    (typically here it is I think because he prefers to wait one more year)

    What kind of trimaran are you constructing ?
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============
    No kidding? "...hard to have a rational discussion." Very interesting.....
     
  10. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Thanks for that link I'd not seen it before. I'm building an updated version of Kurt Hughes Formula40 trimaran design intended solely for short and singlehanded racing. I must actually update the thread on it there has been a lot of preliminary work done on the construction but it would make pretty dry reading. Suffice to say cnc cutting of mold forms and laser cutting of stainless steel has made the procedure of making parts a lot easier.
     
  11. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    The goal of controlling cost for a class is understandable.

    The method chosen for this class is probably more restrictive than needed.

    Consider requiring boards to have minimal curvature but allowing for lift from angles off of vertical. Designs that can provide angle adjustments are not high dollar. A such this allow teams to be creative without the "arms race" problems.
     
  12. oceansailor
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    oceansailor Junior Member

    Actually this "multi 50" design in the picture, chose too have no centerboard or main hull rudder and two straight dagger boards as per the rules, (only four appendages in the water) with rudders only on the amas.
     
  13. oceansailor
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    oceansailor Junior Member

    That's a great walk through video of Sodebo, nice to finally see the installation of some of the systems.... wish my french was much better...
     
  14. Silver Raven
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    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Gooday 'Sam' - I just can't leave this alone - now can I. Your statement above - just does not cut the mustard.

    Do I recall - that - just the other day - some bloody jerk - came up with this blinken 'rule - uuumm - what was it now - then there - were a bunch of 'bloody - K1's' & others (not many - nor nearly enough) & from that very 'stupid' idea - came - darned if'n I know - - what the hell have you guys done - a bex (Oz powder for a bloody head-ace/hang-over) oooohh - was it box-dribble - - darn maybe it was 'box-rule' & ooooohh & YES - you did have 8 or 10 sailing on the weekend.

    BUT - - hange-on-there - me thinks - you might have had 18 to 24 out-there ???

    Not sure what is called - - /Stop telling me you are so right/ cause that's a load of K1 **** or is it - try a less confrontational comment & communication - - like - - Gosh chaps - is there anything that you think we should take on-board - to improve - what we are doing - - What you think - Sam -

    Curved foils don't work &/or have not much or nothing going for them &

    YOU've got a very UGLY BOAT - - MATE - now we all know - that - - that IS NOT TRUE - The mighty "S-M" - has just got to be one of the best looking multihulls in the last/next 10 years. Don't make a fool of the boat by being 'petty' - - - Please - - - you're way WAY to BIG for that.

    Time will show that 'curved-foils' are the way to go - - & time will show the "box-rule" that the way to go forward is to grow & continue to GROW is to modify.

    You don't like the truth - stiff s#@^ - time will show you & many others - that there were & are leaders & we possible should pay some attention to them. They were/are much wiser than - us lesser or better mortals !!!! Don't shoot the messanger boy - read it all - think about it for 10 days - - then get back in here & tell me how stupid I am - Then I'll go away & you'll all be the much 'poorer' for the closed-doors - you have shut. Wont change how the world is going to advance - - curved-foils are the future go & "S-M" is a beautiful multi ! ! ! ! ! ! ciao, james
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======================
    Welcome to the forum ,oceansailor! The Multi 50 in the picture(Prince Bretagne) did have two straight ama foils and two rudders. It was also flying the main hull fairly high which means the straight ama foils were developing some(very little) vertical lift. Curved lifting foils would allow the Multi 50 to fly the main hull(just kissing) while 70-80% of the boats weight was supported by the ama foil. This reduces wetted surface drastically. In less than optimum conditions the curved ama foil tends to help reduce the chance of pitch pole, while improving the ride and controllability so as to allow it to be pushed harder than it can be w/o the foils.
    In some designs, curved lifting foils can allow the size of the ama to be reduced saving weight and reducing costs.
    My opinion is that it is a false economy to prohibit curved lifting foils when four appendages are allowed!
     

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