Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Doug, I know that windsurfers are NOT boats (by the definition of many here), but would it not be correct to credit the windsurfer for showing us how this technique can increase performance by reducing the weight of the sailor carried by the "sailing vessel", and using the inclined rig to produce a lifting force which helps reduce wetted surface area (in the case of the foiling moth, helping it to foil earlier?). If I`m not mistaken, this contribution to sailing was made in the late 70`s/early 80`s.. by millions of recreational windsurfers who had no idea that having a good time on the water was to have such large ramifications on the future of sailing !
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Steve, you're partly right ,of course. But "veal heel" is something that can only be done only by a bi-foiler(or bi-foiler with power foils) and that is because in addition to using the rig to unload the foils and using the angled main foil to unload the vertical fin "veel heel" moves the CG of the hull to weather. It is the only form of windward heel where the CG of the hull moves physically to windward. Veal heel also functions in 3D since the altitude of the boat has no bearing on the benefits of the technique but varying altitude may produce other benefits independent of veal heel.
    From a sailboat design perspective, the use of veel heel can produce increases in RM on the order of 30% on a Moth and 41-2% on a 60' Moth. That is ,basically, "free" RM that requires no crew movement*, no additional weight as well as no movable ballast to achieve**. It is a MAJOR design consideration for large bi-foilers still to come....

    * crew can be at max outboard position and by using this technique increase RM dramatically without changing position relative to the boat

    ** it does require movable ballast to maintain in some cases.

    picture from Bill Beavers paper on the Moth-PM me if you'd like a copy...
     

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  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Steve, you might find this interesting:

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    Here is the US Coast Guard position on sailboards.

    USCG on the question:

    Q: What is the difference between a "sailboat" and a "sailboard?"

    A: While many sailboard manufacturers advertise their products as "sailboats," there are major differences between the two. A sailboat has a fixed mast that the operator does not need to hold up. The design of a sailboat is such that the operator and any passengers can sit down. A sailboard has a free fall system for the sail and mast. In order to sail a sailboard, the operator must stand up and hold up the mast. If a sailboard carries more than one person, it is designed so that each person operates a separate sail while standing on the board.

    http://www.windvisions.com/USCGdefinition.html
    ===================================================
     
  4. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    +1

    Don't kill the Moth with the Olympic curse. What Outteridge/Turner did was superior to Olympic medals and the idiotic professional athlete laden circus that surrounds the whole spectacle. The Olympics are just another two week long made-for-television reality program with more fit people than usual.

    Five ringed circus indeed. Corrupt leadership. Corrosive to sports. Anyone remember the giant algae sewage basin used for the last Olympic sailing venue? Imagine urine turbocharged green slime and fresh turds on Moth foils?

    --
    CutOnce
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Bistros, while I tend to agree with wet feet a bit, your post is downright disgusting-a lot of great athletes spend a lot of time in Olympic preparation including Nathan Outteridge-2011 Moth World Champion. Painting all these athletes with your disagreeable brush does a disservice to a lot of people! You should apologize!


    49er Olympic Race Results after 6 Races.

    49er - Open - Overall Results

    Standing Nation Athletes Race-points (highest tossed) - Total (Net)

    1 AUS Nathan Outteridge, Ben Austin (DQ) 1 7 3 1 1 - 33 (13)

    2 DEN Jonas Warrer,Martin Kirketerp Ibsen 2 4 (10) 4 2 3 - 25 (15)

    3 ITA Pietro Sibello, Gianfranco Sibello 3 (9) 1 1 6 9 - 29 (20)
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!---The WING

    Great comment by "atg" on DA today:

    Enough of the paranoid JSP rhetoric/trolling; anyone can post that stuff on the internet also. This isn't some sort of populist uprising; it is a development class. Similarly, it isn't about preserving the status quo, or maintaining a market for manufacturers, though you seem very committed to some notion you have about what the Class should look like, and how important it should be to look like that, and about which reasons for wanting to sail moths are legitimate. Funny, I don't hear anyone jumping on your bandwagon here. Which "boys" are nominating you their proxy internet spokesperson, precisely?

    I happen to believe the burden of proof lies upon you, actually - not proponents of development - to show that wings are impractical, expensive Class killers. So get busy and build one, document your costs, headache, man hours and experiences. Then tell us from an experienced perspective why you don't favor them.

    The reason the burden of proof lies upon the naysayers is simple: The stated aim of the Class rules is to allow freedom in the design and construction of faster Moths. That is a fundamental principle that I support. It has nothing to do with how much things cost, how big the class is one year or how small the next. It is, quite simply, about freedom to do what you want to your boat to go fast within the rules. Everything you say about wings was said about foils, and proven false. If you don't like the fact that the Class is development-oriented, then start your own Class, rather than mucking up a Class that has been working well for sixty or seventy years now.


    If wings are heavy, expensive, fragile or impractical, there is no better way of proving it than to let some guys build and sail them for awhile. No one really knows what the market will bear in terms of cost, and no one knows how much it costs to make these things yet. No one knows how much they would have to weigh to be robust. So there is a lot to learn before the class can make an informed decision. Nige is spot on when he says the Class is perfectly capable of deciding the matter based upon facts rather than fearmongering.
     
  7. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Picturesque Qingdao:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Low paid workers were sent out constantly to rake the hyperfertilized scum off the sailing venue. Sailors were afraid to capsize and swallow the water. No one wanted to train at the venue, and there certainly wasn't any voluntary swimming going on.

    My position, without apology is that sailing world championships are far more valuable and objective way to evaluate performance. The Olympics stopped being a valid forum in my opinion when professional athletes were allowed to compete with amateurs. The playing fields are not level. The committees that select venues are for sale, and there is no transparency to their proceedings, "gifts" accepted from bidding countries are not documented. Olympic boat selection is ridiculous and biased - and my home, Canada sponsored Paul Henderson as a senior IOC member - one of the most biased and political problems for boat selection in history. Henderson was also ISAF President during a lot of the time sailing began it's decline.

    My post is very honest - and the Olympics are disgusting. When the Olympics are transparent, when team funding and training provides level playing fields and when boat selection is publicly done by people who actively sail competitively instead of partisan dinosaurs with "Buy me!" lapel pins perhaps I'll think better. Don't you remember IOC committees killing multihulls to establish better medal prospects for IOC committee member countries?

    My opinions are provided without apology, and who exactly are you to be demanding apologies. How's the build of your boat going? Got any pictures of progress there champ?

    --
    CutOnce
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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  9. dylantorquerol
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    dylantorquerol Junior Member

    About the wing: During the 2011 Moth Worlds, all of the three wing sails built for the moth were all snapped/broken within a few races. I think the wing sail is pretty cool, but any ideas how they could make it stronger?
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Moth on Foils!

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    Listen to the video above-McKee says an extra layer of carbon on the leading edge fixed everything-at least that's what it sounded like to me. From a structural standpoint, I'm sure there are numerous minor teething issues that will be resolved over time. From a performance standpoint a lot more work will probably have to be done across the board from design on thru to building and perhaps even optimization of the boat design to the advantages of the wing. For instance, it may be possible to move the daggerboard forward increasing the distance of the main foil from the rudder foil which could enhance pitch stability. Lots to look at-it will be interesting to see if a wing can be made to function well within the constraints of the Moth rules.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  12. Doug Lord
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    Moth on Foils!

    Phil S on DA today, 1/20/11:

    Posted Today, 08:14 PM

    The moth class has always been a great boat, and its not just foils today which has made it popular with those who sail it and even more popular with the internet sailors who do not. Its small compact, convenient and relatively inexpensive compared to other high performance boats, and it makes good video.

    Before the 1970s the class had big numbers in many countries, but then the Laser appeared with a huge international promotion budget and the moth faded as the laser succeeded. The small boat buying public were enticed by the supposed equity of one design and the supposed economy of scale in building high volume product. So by the turn of this century we had 130,000 lasers and only about 250 moths in the world. Foiling did not change much for the next 6 years until AMAC and Rohan started Bladerider and again invested heavilly in promotion. Other people took over the company and even though they sold over 200 Bladeriders, the company went belly up owing a lot of people a lot of money. The Moth market is not the same as the laser market. Mach2 seems to be more successful, winning most regattas since it appeared, they have sold 150 odd boats in a couple of years without adding much to the Bladrider effort in the marketting area. They are being more cautious and seem to have a better product. None of the other moth builders are making many boats at all, less than they were making before Bladerider. There remains maybe fewer than a thousand moths sailors registered with IMCA, I do not have accurate numbers.

    So the class is not really as strong as it might appear, spectacular and noteworthy but not really big in numbers. It is still fragile and when people like Steve Clark and Peter(Snubby)Moor advise caution we should at least listen to their opinions. Peter was 1975 Moth WC and PRO for Belmont as well as key person in amalgamation of the International 14 class in the 70s and 80s. He has seen how changes affect class numbers in moths and in I14s.

    The Moth class has become a media event. The Belmont regatta looks like breaking about even financially despite generous sponsorship but because we needed to spend much more than was raised in satisfying the media demands of the international public and placing the sponsors names in front of them. For the sailors the regatta could have been exactly the same with no sponsors and no media. We would still have had the same racing, the same champion, the same parties and the same good time. But none of you in internet land would have known much about it. So I hope this big media effort and big spend by the class has the effect of encouraging many of you into buying moths. If not, at some time in the future when we can not afford the media spend you will have to travel yourself to the big regattas to know what is happenning in the class.

    If we make a bad decision on the wing vote that time may be sooner than it should be. I like wings and want to build one, but if the IMCA votes to ban them, I will comply for the benefit of this great class.
    Phil S
    Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
    2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

    ========================================
    From Steve Clark on DA today,1/22/11:

    Posted Today, 04:14 PM

    Actually, the biggest concern I had for Phil was the hope that he could enjoy the worlds and not get all twisted up politically.
    The biggest risk is that people overreact, hurt each others feelings, insult each other and generally make it hell to hang around the Moth fleet. Sailing is something we do for enjoyment, if a class stops being fun, it fails. Heated discussions like those surrounding the wing and the worlds have the potential to be far more damaging than the technology ever could be. Ultimately a sailboat class is a group of people who affiliate around an object. The affiliation between the people is more important than the object, although it is never seen that way.
    If things are allowed to run their course, the wing will either win on its merits, or remain too impractical to be taken seriously by serious competitor.
    The time in between MAY see both wings and sails competing and alternately winning and losing regattas. It is most likely that the "serious" guys will sail the most proven and competitive technology, and the tinkerers and technological enthusiasts will dick around with wings. They may win a regatta or two which might never happen if the alternate technology is banned.
    So, in my view, the best outcome is a split decision as long as people can stay enthusiastic and have fun.
    SHC

    Beatings will continue until morale improves.

    =========================
    Particularly relevant comment here by Phil S, 1/22/11-considering recent discussion here:

    Posted Today, 04:38 PM (emphasis DL)

    And Steve we did all have a great time at the regatta. IMCA and ISAF sorted out the wng issue before hand and maybe because they were not as fast as some thought they would be first up, they became a side show and not a focal point. I agree with Steve that if they do not get banned they will likely remain a side show until the top sailors are confident that a serious advantage is available. My opinion too is that it will be a shame if that oportunity is denied.
    Phil S
    Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
    2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  14. Doug Lord
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    Moth on Foils!----- Wing Resistance

    From Phil S on DA today:

    Posted Today, 03:02 AM

    This is based on some preliminary discussion amoungst those involved in preparing the IMCA proposals, I do not know if this will be the final way it will go but its what some of us see as the best way to sort out the class issues.

    I think there will need to be a 60% majority in favour of the vote to ban wingrigs, or whatever we decide the wording of a wingrig is going to be, rather than a 60% vote to allow them. There will be separate vote to tidy up the rules, some of which ISAF has recommended, which still needs to be done for good equity reasons independant of whether the class alows wing rigs.

    If by chance the anti wing people see the tidy up motion wording as allowing wings and if consequently it does not gain the 60% needed, the status quo wrt to our rules will remain. In preparing the proposals and the vote we have to make sure that everyone knows that these are two different issues to be decided by two different votes.

    If the vote is against the tidy up proposals then the anomolies and ambiguities in the present rules will remain in force, in fact they will have been endorsed by the lost vote to remove them.

    As a result we should expect a lot of weird rigs, like the 6.25m high wing Dave Lister proposed to build for Belmont. It always satified the wording of the rule if not the intent. Only the multi element rig would remain unmeasurable. A no gap wing could still be measured and it could be as tall as the mast length limit. Remember that wing masts with or without sails attached can be measured according to our current rules and several wing masts have existed and been measured over at least 30 years.

    So IMCA members please be aware that there are two separate issues, We most certainly need to tidy up our rules and we should all accept the text being prepared by our committee after lots of discussion and consultation about where problems exist. You will also get a vote on wing rig legality and this has to be taken as a separate issue. Both votes need a 60% majority to succeed and the class definately needs the tidy up vote to be successful.
    Phil S
    Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
    2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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