Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!

From Scuttlebutt yesterday:

CARNAGE CONDITIONS
Belmont, NSW, Australia (January 11, 2011) - -"Twentyfour knot gusts pumped
down the race course for a full day of racing at the 2011 Zhik Moth Worlds'
first day of the Final Series. Rarely dropping below a healthy 18 knot East
by Northeasterly, sailors across the fleet had their share of stacks,
crashes and comebacks that has opened up the scorecard.

Looking at the score board, Nathan Outteridge (AUS) continues to dominate,
but got a minuscule chip in his armor when he showed his second
"none-bullet" by finishing 4th in the last race. Out of twelve races he has
won 10 so far. Despite his dominance, however, he holds only a six point
margin over Aussie Joe Turner in second.

While 2009 World Champ Bora Gulari (USA) had a very decent day with a 4, 3,
7 to now sits in 5th overall, and Linsdsay Bergan (USA) is tied for the lead
of top women, others on the American squad will be using Wednesday's lay day
to rebuild. Brad Funk's rudder system exploded, Charlie McKee's wing
exploded, and Dalton Bergan's mast exploded. While Chris Rast's boat did not
explode, he nearly did until he realized his speed woes were the result of a
major leak in the hull.

The day ended with the Moth Class Annual General Meeting, which showed a bit of tension as the future of the wings was discussed. "There were a couple of sailors (and mast makers) that want to downright ban any development of
wings, which I find absolutely absurd in a development class," observed
Rast. "We haven't even yet really started and they already want to ban it? I
can just see the headlines on the sailing websites: Moth Class bans Wings!
Right next to the other headline: The next AC to be sailed with wings!" "


Racing will commence on Thursday and conclude on Friday.

Results: http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/results/

=======================================
From Scuttlebut:

SEE WHERE MOTHS ARE BUILT
Moth dinghies may seem otherworldly, but they are indeed built on Earth. One
of those places is IYRS in Rhode Island. Composites Technology students will
build a fleet of Moths this term that will become part of the Sail Newport
fleet. See the school's Composites and Marine Systems facility in Bristol
during a January 19 Open House that runs from 4-7 pm (rescheduled from
January 12). You will also see Systems students' projects, some involving
alternative energy sources such as wind generators and solar power. Go to
http://www.iyrs.org to learn more.
===================================================
See post #1241 for Simon Paynes announcement of a new, smaller area foil for high speed.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! The Wing(demise video)

Video of The Wing having a bad day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj5HoJhIgLo&feature=player_embedded

 

[CutOnce]

He is well known for his innovation and composites knowledge

Exactly. Someone in the industry, with contacts, a complete facility to build things, experience and sponsors is not the right person to judge how much it costs for someone back of the fleet to build anything. Ite certainly helps he's a top racer with sponsorship potential, photogenic and by all reports quite personable.

Nobody from CST or Mach II is calling my shop about slapping on any decals. People deep into a business segment forget the years of time, the thousands of dollars spent on building the shop, experience and the piles of material left over from other projects. Some newbie to Moths will have none of that.

How much is an oven big enough to bake a front skin for a wing mast? How much does it cost to buy a vacuum pump, bagging materials, the pressure regulators etc. to equip a shop for sucking an atmosphere or more for 24 hours? How much does a dust collection system, paint booth & positive pressure breathing system cost? How much does it cost to insure yourself and your shop? How much will it cost to bring it up to code? How much to have it inspected?

Adam May has already been down this road and paid for these things, but someone new will have to do this before they can build their "cheap" wing at home. Steve Clark has his "Lab of Luxury" in Rhode Island. Fred Eaton has his Object 2 facility built inside a facility that does race car aerodynamic carbon parts fabrication (oh, yeah, and Fred is a multimillionaire). Each of these places capable of building a quality wing safely costs tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars or more - and all that is spent before the first acceptable quality wing walks out the door. What about molds? How long does it take to fabricate acceptable molds and pull parts? Who pays for the molds?

Anyone sensible and experienced in building anything knows it takes a lot to get going. Sam Schneider spent two years working in a composites shop with limitless access to resources and expertise to pop one hull out of his own molds. Don't trivialize everything that looks like a roadblock to exciting technology, and don't be convinced that it's cheap and easy. It isn't or it already would have been done.

Adam May knows this. It is easy and relatively cheap for him, but for newbie getting into the game it isn't. Or if you think so, go ahead and do and keep a ledger for costs, and submit your wing to a top Moth sailor for testing. See how long it takes, and what it costs. Since it's cheap and anyone can do it, PROVE IT.

and your remarks are completely out of line. You have a tendency to dump on people whose remarks do not fit your views and that is a shame.

Stop acting like the forum decorum police. Jeff is perfectly capable of moderating here. You keep up with your personal comments and attacks while I am staying on topic, and not talking about you.

I've presented a reasoned and logical case why building lightweight composite wings are not as cheap as buying a mast, boom & sail. Please explain how anyone new can safely build a competitive, lightweight wing for the same price starting from no shop, no materials and no expertise.

--
CutOnce

 

[Doug Lord]

Someone in the industry, with contacts, a complete facility to build things, experience and sponsors is not the right person to judge how much it costs for someone back of the fleet to build anything. Ite certainly helps he's a top racer with sponsorship potential, photogenic and by all reports quite personable.

Nobody from CST or Mach II is calling my shop about slapping on any decals. People deep into a business segment forget the years of time, the thousands of dollars spent on building the shop, experience and the piles of material left over from other projects. Some newbie to Moths will have none of that.

How much is an oven big enough to bake a front skin for a wing mast? How much does it cost to buy a vacuum pump, bagging materials, the pressure regulators etc. to equip a shop for sucking an atmosphere or more for 24 hours? How much does a dust collection system, paint booth & positive pressure breathing system cost? How much does it cost to insure yourself and your shop? How much will it cost to bring it up to code? How much to have it inspected?

Adam May has already been down this road and paid for these things, but someone new will have to do this before they can build their "cheap" wing at home. Steve Clark has his "Lab of Luxury" in Rhode Island. Fred Eaton has his Object 2 facility built inside a facility that does race car aerodynamic carbon parts fabrication (oh, yeah, and Fred is a multimillionaire). Each of these places capable of building a quality wing safely costs tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars or more - and all that is spent before the first acceptable quality wing walks out the door. What about molds? How long does it take to fabricate acceptable molds and pull parts? Who pays for the molds?

Anyone sensible and experienced in building anything knows it takes a lot to get going. Sam Schneider spent two years working in a composites shop with limitless access to resources and expertise to pop one hull out of his own molds. Don't trivialize everything that looks like a roadblock to exciting technology, and don't be convinced that it's cheap and easy. It isn't or it already would have been done.

Adam May knows this. It is easy and relatively cheap for him, but for newbie getting into the game it isn't. Or if you think so, go ahead and do and keep a ledger for costs, and submit your wing to a top Moth sailor for testing. See how long it takes, and what it costs. Since it's cheap and anyone can do it, PROVE IT.



Stop acting like the forum decorum police. Jeff is perfectly capable of moderating here. You keep up with your personal comments and attacks while I am staying on topic, and not talking about you.

I've presented a reasoned and logical case why building lightweight composite wings are not as cheap as buying a mast, boom & sail. Please explain how anyone new can safely build a competitive, lightweight wing for the same price starting from no shop, no materials and no expertise.

--
CutOnce

===============

When May was talking about a Wing being available for about the same price as a current rig-mast, sail, boom and hardware he was not talking about someone building a wing. He was talking about The Wing being purchased as a ready to go unit. I think that it is highly unlikely that many people will want to design and build a wing from scratch-or even build from plans. But if-and its a big IF- The Wing is developed, competitive and available there will probably be a market. That development be allowed to continue is key and I hope it will.

click on image:

 

[Cheesy]

===============

When May was talking about a Wing being available for about the same price as a current rig-mast, sail, boom and hardware he was not talking about someone building a wing. He was talking about The Wing being purchased as a ready to go unit. I think that it is highly unlikely that many people will want to design and build a wing from scratch-or even build from plans. But if-and its a big IF- The Wing is developed, competitive and available there will probably be a market. That development be allowed to continue is key and I hope it will.

click on image:

"about" is a relative term... Wings being cool and all, I dont see them being competitive price wise with a standard rig, there is just too much carbon in them and too many parts, and then I doubt they will be as durable

 

[P Flados]

The posts by Doug and CutOnce both have valid points, but I think there is a bigger picture out there that is somewhere in between.

Most of the current cream of the crop winner circle kind of guys probably sail more more than 150 days a year. The skill level and the experience with getting their boats reliable pays off. For any "average guy" to compete with these guys for a world title is a stretch to begin with. Most moth sailors would probably be happy to be in contention for winning at the Local or Regional races. As Doug has noted, since these guys (Local hot shots) can be competitive with or without a wing, allowing wings at this time does not put the fleet into a “money is no object” arms race.

If a Local hot shot is someone who can build and wants to push technology, a "do it yourself project" is not out of the question. Hand lay-up with maybe a little bit of vacuuming is currently being used by many making the boats. I am convinced that this level of construction can be used to achieve good results. By good results, I am talking good boat speed and reasonable ruggedness/reliability even if weight is more than the high dollar versions. A build at home version may also struggle to be as good as a professional at handling the edges of the operating range. Most of these guys would probably try to hang onto a soft rig or two both for these conditions and for when a wing is out of commission for some other reason.

On the other hand, when development starts to deliver the results I think it can, one or more firms may start offering winning wings. Top level build technology will not be cheap and makers may set a steep entry price for this hot new item. This could be tough for those that would feel pushed into buying "the best rig on the market".

Super light is probably the one goal that both pushes cost up the most and potentially push ruggedness down. Super light is probably not essential for wings to beat soft rigs. Setting a minimum weight for wings (say 125% to 150% of the second generation O2 wings that seem less rugged than desired) would not stop development and in fact would allow for easier build techniques. This would help control cost for those that would be buyers and it would also really help the home build crowd. Making the limit a temporary rule, or just agreeing that the value is subject to change as needed might be worth considering.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!--Technology vs Homebuilding

Mr. Flados, good comments. I'm afraid I don't see the "homebuilder" element in the new world class Moth. I think that element has been compromised by the use of foils and the technology required to make them world class. Especially now that Si Payne has announced that Mach 2 will offer a new smaller main foil. That could lead to a competitive requirement to have multiple foil sets or to real innovation like removable foil tips. I think all this is good for the fastest, most technologically advanced sailboat under 20'. It is not good for homebuilders and I don't think most homebuilders would even consider building a set of foils-or a wing.
The class is past the homebuilder for the time being but it has earned an enviable position as the most advanced, fastest small sailboat period. Win some lose some.
Development, for the most part will be financed by hot shots, companies and "other interests". And hopefully wing development will continue even though there are major questions about its viability within the Moth rules.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!------Final Worlds Racing,race 4 & 5

Prelimnary results of the final racing: see box on right side-- http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/news.jsp

Zhik 2011 Moth Worlds RESULTS --- Prelim Race 5 --- GOLD-see update below
1-GULARI, 2-Outteridge, 3-Harris, 4-Gudgen, 5-McKnight, 6-Payne

Gulari has apparently won TWO-congratulations Team USA!see update below

Race 4 --- GOLD ---
GULARI gets the bullet!!
2nd-5th all stack it before the line, it's a race to get up and over the line

========================
Also:

Most the fleet is back ashore, few rescues still under way...
The Wing-sail is missing the entire aft component, and the tip, but McKee seems to be foiling along just fine! See picture below-look carefully!
=====
UPDATE: Gulari did not get the race 5 win-13th instead, 5th overall http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/gold-after-5-races.pdf

 

[P Flados]

Mr. Flados, good comments. I'm afraid I don't see the "homebuilder" element in the new world class Moth. I think that element has been compromised by the use of foils and the technology required to make them world class. Especially now that Si Payne has announced that Mach 2 will offer a new smaller main foil. That could lead to a competitive requirement to have multiple foil sets or to real innovation like removable foil tips. I think all this is good for the fastest, most technologically advanced sailboat under 20'. It is not good for homebuilders and I don't think most homebuilders would even consider building a set of foils-or a wing.
The class is past the homebuilder for the time being but it has earned an enviable position as the most advanced, fastest small sailboat period. Win some lose some.
Development, for the most part will be financed by hot shots, companies and "other interests". And hopefully wing development will continue even though there are major questions about its viability within the Moth rules.

I strongly disagree that homebuilding is done for the Moth class.

I also strongly agree that I do not see a win at the worlds in anything other than a top production (most likely) or custom built (small chance) boat. Not only that, but it will be by the guys that have 10x more time on the water than any average joe.

The homebuilt boat is no big deal. Since winners do not spend much time with the hull in the water, best available design does not mean much. The rack can be built at home, cost can be high if all new parts are used, but broken windsurfer masts can help a lot. Most foils will be bought, but as long as there are more than a couple of suppliers, cost is not a killer. The rig and the loose parts do add up to a lot. Most builders are not regatta winners (yet), but so what. Being mid-pack in a boat you built is not bad for many who are not in it to win come heck or high water.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! New Class record speed

New Record!
Scott Babbage has set a new class speed record and heres the evidence:
31.1 knots----35.77mph

 

[CutOnce]

I strongly disagree that homebuilding is done for the Moth class.

I also strongly agree that I do not see a win at the worlds in anything other than a top production (most likely) or custom built (small chance) boat. Not only that, but it will be by the guys that have 10x more time on the water than any average joe.

The homebuilt boat is no big deal. Since winners do not spend much time with the hull in the water, best available design does not mean much. The rack can be built at home, cost can be high if all new parts are used, but broken windsurfer masts can help a lot. Most foils will be bought, but as long as there are more than a couple of suppliers, cost is not a killer. The rig and the loose parts do add up to a lot. Most builders are not regatta winners (yet), but so what. Being mid-pack in a boat you built is not bad for many who are not in it to win come heck or high water.

No matter how you slice it, there is not enough volume in the Moth aftermarket parts (foils, wings etc.) to generate any significant economies of scale from a production standpoint, especially if there is an incumbent manufacturer building the boat 95% of the people are sailing.

That doesn't mean people won't build the stuff - just that either they won't make any money or the prices will be stratospheric. Most likely they won't make any money and the prices will also be stratospheric.

Homebuilders like Sam Schneider will always keep trying. Sam's the son of a Naval Architect, pretty amazing amateur NA himself and he's put two and a half years investment of time into learning high end composite building techniques. I have no doubt he'll produce a boat that will rival production quality builders, just like Dave Lister etc.

Part of my taking a stand on some of these issues is the premise was raised by Doug:

"Since the Object 2 wing did not outperform everything, few in the Moth community will be worried about accepting wings into class rules"

This concept basically indicates performance is the important criteria by which class members accept or reject wings. I expect history to change soon (posts will disappear or be re-written).

I think the Moth class members do not care in the slightest whether or not the Object 2 wings in the current regatta are faster or not than current rigs. If the Object 2 wings had proved faster than every rig on the water in Belmont, I do not think anyone would change their position on the issue. It isn't performance thats the issue.

I have to disagree with you on weight - a heavier wing will require the foil to lift more weight and will induce more drag - you can not escape physics. I agree that more weight to windward of the CLR (i.e. windward heel) will have a benefit in regards to righting moment, but that benefit will be offset by increased drag supporting the weight. The concept that more RM and more power nullify increased weight doesn't fly with me. Since the Moth fundamentally caps power by sail area, there is no benefit to increased RM - no one on the race course seems to be hunting for more RM - but they would not object to more power at times.

Yes, I think just about anyone could build a functional wing where higher weight decreases cost. Yes, I believe there is a huge amount of wing performance potential to be explored in 8 square meters of sail area. Moth sailors being Moth sailors, I don't think they would be happy with a 15-20% heavier wing, unless they weigh 140 pounds and have the skill to keep it upright. I don't see a lot more one-man efforts like Adam May has done on the horizon.

I actually agree with Doug on the concept that the next level of performance refinements will focus on foils, rigs (perhaps including wings) and the issues affecting performance while foiling - drag (both aero and hydro), maximizing lift from 8 square meters of sail area and reducing the operator work load to allow better concentration on tactics and course management. The hull is basically a platform to hold all the important bits, and on that we agree. If this premise holds water, and my assumption about market volumes being microscopic is true, this certainly make Moths more expensive to play with.

As I noted a few posts ago, the performance delta amongst the top end of the fleet has narrowed significantly over the last five years. A good part of that is directly attributable to de-facto standardization of the platform - and the fleet sharing how to set up boats for optimal performance. Getting a Mach II tuned is a group shared experience. It's a lot easier to concentrate on sailing when you don't have to worry about getting your boat up to speed. It has gotten a lot more like one-design Mach II racing this year, and a lot less like a random smörgåsbord of eclectic go-fast dreams. I think there is a lot of benefit in refining/automating control systems so the helm can keep their head out of the boat more.

It will be interesting to see how the class membership deal with wings. There certainly is an opportunistic element trying to benefit from AC wing fever, but I'm not sure everyone sails Moths because they are looking for a high paying rodeo ride on the AC cash cow. Magnus hinted that a lot of the benefit of wings was due to it having the complete attention of one of the two man crew in a C Class - and a Moth helm does not have hours of free time to look up and constantly tweak three control settings for twist.

Fun to watch everything from here, but I'd rather be sailing. Our race course can be walked right now because the water has gone solid.

--
CutOnce

 

[Doug Lord]

Bistros, you deliberately misquoted me above! If you're going to quote me ,do it accurately instead of putting a paraphrase in quotes. The post below answers your comments above now as it did when you first made them!

===============================

Originally Posted by CutOnce

1) Your conclusion is that resistance to the wing sail is due to people's fear of the wing sail being faster and outclassing all conventionally equipped boats in the class. Wrong. The Moth as a development class has a long history of embracing new ideas to advance performance and keep the design from becoming outdated.



2) Sailing with wings also changes the crash-right-and-go paradigm of Moth sailing. The example set at Belmont is pretty clear - crashing a wing is a race-ending situation - and even if spares are present and wings are stronger, racing in Moths will change significantly with wings. Making wings stronger adds weight, and added weight will slow things down. Joe Average club racer will not be able to race his wing sail Moth on beer can nights, because he'll be afraid of crash costs.

3) The real issues behind the conflict are not performance, they are cost and reduced appeal of the class to potential members that may not be able to afford to race. The membership fears are centered on the potential that a wing sailed Moth may move the class more towards the C Class - a smaller class where only the well heeled financially can afford to be competitive.--
CutOnce




===================
1) Not true. While it IS true that if the wing had blown everybody else off the water it would be doomed in the class, it is not because of any "fear" of performance. It is fear of those elements you mention-cost etc.
As it is, the performance has shown that for a wing to be viable there is much more development to be done and that threatens nobody in a development class.

2) Not true-at least no more true than a high tech carbon mast breaking, sail tearing, boom breaking which has happened numerous times. Racing at a high level in a high tech boat means spares, spares, spares. Also, in a Moth wing weight can help with RM upwind or at any time with veal heel.

3) I agree with this with the caveats above. As to the relationship of the C Class saga to the Moth wing those that research the technical aspects will find there is none: the Moth rules may significantly handicap wing development in the Moth class*. Only major experimentation will overcome this potential handicap. The "well heeled" are already owners of International campaigning in the Moth class-no doubt about it-but so far they can't buy a championship no matter how much they spend and that's a tribute to a great old class.


* From Tom Speer, post 90 UWT thread
"The fixed luff length of the Moth will neutralize one of the advantages wings have enjoyed, which is the ability to have a taller rig and still maintain accurate control of twist and camber. So you may not see as big a difference between wings and soft sails in the Moth class as you do in other classes."[/QUOTE]

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!----Thrills, Spills and Chills:The Video

Incredible demonstration of the Worlds Fastest Sailboat under 20':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LFLfH9j1PE&feature=player_embedded

Race 5 & Babbages record http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f3nk-iORbk&feature=player_embedded

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! Final Day

Racing starting soon-(early today) :

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Zhik-2011-Moth-Worlds/160102677355280

RACING DAY 6 FINAL DAY!
creeping up on first race of the day.
RC reports steady 15 knots with gusts to 18 from North North-East.
30 minutes until first start --- Silver fleet. 7 min until start at approx 10am OZ.
==================

Race 6 --- Prelim RESULTS --- GOLD ---
1-BURLING, 2-Outteridge, 3-Slingsby, 4-Gough, 5-Turner, 6-Babbage, 7-McKnight, 8-Harris, 9-Peet, 10-Jensen, 11-Funk, 12-Gulari, 13-Payne

=================

Race 7 --- Prelim Results --- GOLD ---
1-GULARI, 2-Burling, 3-Turner, 4-Outteridge, 5-Crockett, 6-Harris, 7-Paton, 8-Babbage, 9-Sherring, 10-Psarofaghis


=================

Race 8---Prelim Results---GOLD
SLINGSBY gets the gun by a mile!
RESULTS ---
1-SLINGSBY, 2-Babbage, 3-Gulari, 4-Turner, 5-Jensen, 6-Outteridge, 7-Burling, 8-Harris

From the facebook site above(like all prelim results) : Unofficial... but unless our math is horribly wrong...
OUTTERIDGE WINS THE WORLDS
=================


Race 9 --- Prelim RESULTS --- GOLD ---
Babbage takes the gun, TURNER 2nd and 2nd overall for the regatta!
3-Harris, 4-Outteridge, 5-Funk, 6-Gulari, 7-Jensen...

=================


Spreadsheet with preliminary results: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...RZGdaNnE1TmQtekE&authkey=CN6V6_QO&hl=en#gid=0

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! 31.1 knots(35.8mph)

I want to thank Jeff for updating the thread title to reflect Scott Babbages new Moth Class record. Thanks!