Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Moth on Foils! The Wing

Interesting comments by Adam May ,Aug 2010:

Many people have asked about how practical it is – well it is obviously not as practical as a standard rig, but this one fits on my current road trailer, and I plan to make the top section above the hounds come off after the Euros, and then it will pack into a box about the size of our current Moth travel boxes, so that then isn’t too bad.

Cost? – I had the initial mould costs, but if you forget that, the wing probably cost me only a little more than going out and getting a new mast, boom and sail together. Having done one – the time to build another would be a lot less. Interestingly a home builder could buy the component bits and get a rig for cheaper than currently.

http://foilborne.blogspot.com/2010/08/wing.html

 

Moth on Foils! The Wing

Magnus Clarke( wing designer, resident expert, friend-and damn nice guy) from DA:

No doubt there is still plenty to figure out on that wing, it certainly has moments of brilliance but as noted, it has issues too.

everyone should keep in mind these things were designed and built in a big hurry. The prototype wing was put together in 8 days at the Object 2 shop with 5 people or so going all out on it. It was mostly pulled out of existing tooling. susbsequently it has all of 10 days of testing on it, which rounds out in the greater scheme of things to about none.

The next 3 wings were built even faster, 3 wings in 10 days by a similar number of people. But they achieved a 30-35% weight savings over wing #1. So again, good job boys to the guys who stayed up late to build those things. they were very well crafted and came out looking very good. Having been built they were prmptly stuffed in a container and shipped off to AUS post haste.

From a design perspective we knew going into this project they would not be the optimal wing design by a long stretch. With a D-section leading edge on the front foil, they don't twist. This means these wings cannot use full camber downwind across the full span of the wing due to gradient effects, so the whole wing is not kicking out the kind of lift per foot of span that say a C-cat wing could.

Next of course are the mechanics. Less hands on board a moth that a C, so what you can tune on the fly is compromised quite a bit. Also we are dealing with a lot of structural scale effects that are affecting how certaing components within the wing flex, move and jiggle, this all erodes the perfromance a bit if it's not doing what it was designed to.

Reynolds numbers, yes, in a moth they are low, but really not substantially lower than a C-cat in light conditions and we can make C-cat wings work just fine in light conditions. even in 8 knots TWS the wing should not be dropping below 250,000 on the RE number so we don't need to call Mr Drela just yet.

As for sturcture, yes there is also issues to sort out there. We tried working with TPT on this project and for a first go round, I would say it's been pretty impressive stuff to work with so far but there is a lot of learning to do before we are happy with the whole wing structural package. Again, going into this project we as a team knew there would be structural load conditions well outside what a C-cat wing is designed for, E.g. hitting the water at 25 knots. If you do that in a c-cat, you accept that you have likely blown your wing to bits. In a moth you kind of expect that you are going to do that with some regularity, regardless of skill level it seems. So on balance, the wings in the moths are taking a ton of abuse relative to C-class standards of care and operation.

Also in respect of structure, things do not always work out the way they are planned. Some changes to the drawings were made on the shop floor which might have lead to some potentially not good things in the final build and operation of the wing, I think this was a contributing factor in the demise of the one wing mid-gybe. I don't really hold the builders responsible for this one because we were all just trying to get the things out the door in record time.

As for the perfromance of the wing currently? Well to my eye, some 15,000 km away taking periodic reports from Lawn Boy, it's doing pretty well all things considered. To imagine that a wing is a panacea that will magically make you jump to light speed is, naive. currently these things are still very much in the realm of experimental. issues of usability and how easy it is to step were totally secondary to issues like just getting on the water by the deadline. Learning how to get the most out of it? Well that just takes time, a fair bit. wings are not easy to sail with, they don't luff and tell you when they are unhappy, quite the opposite. So to date I am pretty encouraged by their perfromance. Sure I would have liked to see the wing doing better in the results, but this is still really early days. By C-class standards just getting around the course a couple of times with out it blowing up constantly is a very good start. Hanging in in the mid-top of the fleet, is very good. Doing all of that with something that is likely 1/2 sq meter smaller than everyone else is really good.

So lets get a few final facts straight before I wander off again.

Bora Gulari wanted to build a wing so he approached Object 2 to do something about it.

Fred Eaton, Magnus Clarke, and Steve Killing designed the wing, based in large part on existing tooling, to help speed up the project. Magnus does the planform shapes and wing sections, Steve is responsible for structures, laminate schedules etc. Fred is the master of the show. We all worked closely with Bora to figure out how it would work and what we might expect. Design was done in a matter of days.

Rossi Milev and Rob Paterson were the lead builders. Bora, George, Chris Rast, and a number of others were involved very closely and tirelessly in the build process of all 4 wings.

One wing was built, tested for a week and a half, ridden very hard and put away wet. The next 3 wings were built based on what was learned in that short timeframe.

The 3 new wings were shipped to Aus and rigged once they got there. They were only intended for Bora and George Peet.

Rob Paterson of Object 2, travelled to AUS to help out the guys in the development, maintainence and optimization of the wings.

After a few days of testing Bora and George were not entirely confident in the wings abilities to help them perfrom at the worlds, so they chose to go with the soft sail option, they are there to perfrom as well as possible, not to parade around with a wing on regardless of results. So the choice to not use it, is fair enough.

Charlie McKee chose to step up and use a wing for the event, to continue the development of it. For this I personally applaud him.

Again, Rob Paterson is down there keeping the wings fed and watered the way they should be. When it breaks, it's not Charlie gluing it back together, it'll be Rob, just like in the C-cats. He is our super capable shore crew who makes sure **** is ready to fly on time, every morning.

So to everyone involved so far in this project, I say, congratulations, great job so far. Bora, George and the Detroit crew have been great to work with. Steve K and Fredo have been as awesome as ever in bringing the project to fruition, the guys at TPT provided some great product to trial and showed really good support when it was needed. Rossi, as a builder he's always got your back and his anal tendecies are perfect in a job like this and of course Robbie Paterson, who has tirelessly slaved away at getting these things in the air and going forwards.

Also, good one on the class for allowing it to race. It's a shame it was such a bun fight going into it, but I am happy to see it able to go and play with the others. I would hope that some sane discussion follows the event on how perhaps wings can continue to develop within the class and hope that there can be a path beaten towards a fair and even standard of measurement for any kind of sail and or rig combo, that suits the classes ethos.

 

And then there was one ....



Image is linked from photographer T. Martinez web site.

Second of the three wings broke yesterday. One left. Good news is that they are collecting all the remaining bits for failure analysis and have seen flashes of brilliance periodically. Blunted's write up on Sailing Anarchy has cleared up a lot of speculation regarding the design and it's level of refinement.

You have to give a lot of credit to Fred Eaton who has obviously bankrolled a huge part of this project - although he will never seek any notice for it. Sending Lawnboy (Rob Paterson) to OZ to feed and maintain the wings is a huge gesture. Not only is Fredo a major part of the design team, he's been the godfather of Canadian performance sailing and the trickle-down effect of the community surrounding him is huge.

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Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE

It should be noted that while The Wing gets the publicity other rigs have been lost during this regatta, here is just one:

Damage took its toll on Funk and Dalton Bergan (USA), Funk lost a rudder, Bergan a rig and now carries 2 DNFs.

Day 1, Final Series
1-Outteridge
2-Turner
3-Babbage
4-Harris
5-Gulari (USA)



http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/finals-gold-day-1-results.pdf


More on the racing: http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/2011/01/11/stacks-crashes-and-comebacks/

 

Moth Worlds - so far ....

So far there have been no surprises at this year's Moth Worlds in my opinion. Two great local sailors who know the venue are leading by a large margin. There is a group of perennially fast contenders clumped together filling out most of the top ten and there are no major world-changing technologies other than the premature test outing of the wing sail.

Compared to previous Moth Worlds, there is nothing momentous like the introduction of the Mach II which completely outclassed it's competition, the brief explosion of the Bladerider era, or the major change that happened when Ilett foils took over the class from skinny Moths. This year, the notable event has been the bun fight (Blunted's phrase) between the "proceed carefully" crowd and the "trend monkeys" who have to jump on bandwagons before they have determined if it is going in their direction.

Good things I've noticed is the field quality of the competitors as a group has gone up a lot. There isn't the great divide seen where one or two competitors were in a completely different regatta than the rest. Two ladies in the Gold fleet is promising. It appears more like one-design Mach II racing than it does the smorgasbord extravaganzas of the past.

What wil tomorrow bring? I'm counting on Bora continuing to climb the ladder. Right now it seems sticking on Nathan Outteridge's stern quarter should be good for a second place finish.

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Moth on Foils!

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I think the biggest surprise is gulari's poor performance-not so much in the light air but even when it was windy. He picked up a bit in the wind and if the wind stays up he may have a slight chance. If the wind drops-no chance at all. Overall a surprising performance. The poor performance of the wing is not too much of a surprise given the rush to get them done and it may be the best thing that could have happened since there won't be so much "Wing Resistance" in the future which may allow wings to be approved by the class as a whole after the Worlds -an excellent development.
The Australians,especially Outteridge, have put on a remarkable display of foiler competence- simply outclassing everybody else-thats a bit of a surprise.
I wish Team USA luck in the next few days...

 

Earth to Doug

Being on the first page of the Gold fleet at a 100 boat plus World Championships in anything that floats is a good performance. Local knowledge is a huge advantage in any venue - especially one with challenges like weed, tides and currents. Hold the race in Lake St. Clair and see what happens.

I would not support the position that the wing performance has been poor - it has done quite well considering the time available for development and testing prior to the shipping window. To be honest, I do not expect the class decision making to be affected in the slightest by performance in the current worlds. People's problems with wings in the class had nothing to do with fear of it going faster.

Wing resistance? Nope. You have created a fantasy conflict where you have completely missed the point of the debate. The conflict with the wing is philosophical and financial - not performance-driven. Everybody likes ratcheting up performance - on that there is no debate. Not everybody likes incorporating major cost increases and uncontrolled arms race situations, and not everybody likes driving the class away from it's traditional constituents. You've missed the point entirely if you think Moth sailors are afraid of going faster because of wings.

If Larry and company want the Moth class to be a wing-sailed feeder class for AC talent, then they can fund class members to the tune of $3000 per sail number. For that price they'll get more development than they can shake a stick at for less than it cost for one wing sail on the tri-hulled BMW-Oracle AC boat. Bottom line, the class membership will decide what is best for them to keep the class fun and active.

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Moth on Foils! The Wing

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That comment doesn't make any sense to me. There was/is a major conflict going on within the class regarding The Wing-documented well here and on Dinghy Anarchy in words and video interviews. If The Wing had done what some had hoped it would do -be demonstrably faster than a soft sail in racing-then the chances of it getting approved by a vote of the class would be unlikely.
With the poor results it has shown it is obvious that there is MUCH more development time required before the wing can be a weapon of choice-if it ever can. The technology for soft sails is highly refined -that and the Moth rules quirks that can limit the effectiveness of the wing(see Tom Speer previously) may prevent viable development in this class.
But I hope development will go forward.....

 

As I just said, you have missed the point entirely - this is why it doesn't make sense to you. Thanks for proving my point.

Your conclusion is that resistance to the wing sail is due to people's fear of the wing sail being faster and outclassing all conventionally equipped boats in the class. Wrong. The Moth as a development class has a long history of embracing new ideas to advance performance and keep the design from becoming outdated.

It isn't fear of being faster, it is fear of costing more and losing the boat's unique identity as a small, single handed performance dinghy that bring a development class boat into the hands of lots of people where individual development and home builds can challenge at the World's level. The cost of competing in the Moth class at the World's level for an average person has gone from $10K US (for a competitive plywood skiff or skinny hull) in the 90s to $25K US now for a McConaghy/McDougall Mach II. In twenty years, there has been a 150% increase in the minimum cost to sit at the table. Adding wing sails will ratchet that number up significantly more, as the entry-level person joining the class will not have the experience, the facilities and the knowledge to build a competitive wing that can rival what Object 2 will be able to build after they incorporate the lessons learned in Belmont. I would not be surprised if a wing sail cost $3-5K US delivered from a commercial builder like O2. I've seen their prices on Beiker 5 I-14s, and they are worth every penny. Object 2 is NOT a big money maker and their prices are reasonable for the quality of product they produce.

Basically, the class has to consciously choose to leave it's homebuilder, low cost to experiment roots behind to follow the trend into wing sails and the much higher engineering, fabrication and material cost world. Yes, some sophisticated class members can cost-effectively build wings, but these guys like Adam May and Steve Clark that can build wings cheaply are not the rule - they are the exception.

Sailing with wings also changes the crash-right-and-go paradigm of Moth sailing. The example set at Belmont is pretty clear - crashing a wing is a race-ending situation - and even if spares are present and wings are stronger, racing in Moths will change significantly with wings. Making wings stronger adds weight, and added weight will slow things down. Joe Average club racer will not be able to race his wing sail Moth on beer can nights, because he'll be afraid of crash costs.

The real issues behind the conflict are not performance, they are cost and reduced appeal of the class to potential members that may not be able to afford to race. The membership fears are centered on the potential that a wing sailed Moth may move the class more towards the C Class - a smaller class where only the well heeled financially can afford to be competitive.

Everybody in the Moth class wants class performance to increase, but many people are afraid that following the wing sail path will result in damage to the class membership. Lots of people can afford to sit at $5 dollar tables at the casino, but there is a much smaller group that are willing to sit at the $100 dollar tables.

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Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE

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1) Not true. While it IS true that if the wing had blown everybody else off the water it would be doomed in the class, it is not because of any "fear" of performance. It is fear of those elements you mention-cost etc.
As it is, the performance has shown that for a wing to be viable there is much more develpment to be done and that threatens nobody in a development class.

2) Not true-at least no more true than a high tech carbon mast breaking, sail tearing, boom breaking which has happened numerous times. Racing at a high level in a high tech boat means spares, spares, spares. Also, in a Moth wing weight can help with RM upwind or at any time with veal heel.

3) I agree with this with the caveats above. As to the relationship of the C Class saga to the Moth wing those that research the technical aspects will find there is none: the Moth rules may significantly handicap wing development in the Moth class*. Only major experimentation will overcome this potential handicap. The "well heeled" are already owners of International campaigning in the Moth class-no doubt about it-but so far they can't buy a championship no matter how much they spend and that's a tribute to a great old class.


* From Tom Speer, post 90 UWT thread
"The fixed luff length of the Moth will neutralize one of the advantages wings have enjoyed, which is the ability to have a taller rig and still maintain accurate control of twist and camber. So you may not see as big a difference between wings and soft sails in the Moth class as you do in other classes."

 

Break out the defibrillator. I need a zap to restart my heart. Partial, qualified agreement is a state I never thought to achieve.

There may be ways to work within the Moth luff length rules but move the sail area around to achieve the net effect of higher aspect ratio. If the slot and number of element issues leave room to move, much can be done to raise performance potential as well. There certainly are lots of technical aspects where cross-over from C Class wings can play a major role. Reading Blunted's post, he indicated they had no time to play with twist, and downwind (and lighter wind) aspects of the Moth wing were ignored. Multi-element wings with controllable twist and optimized slots are a totally different animal from what is being sailed at Belmont.

Although luff length is a limitation, it will take a clear interpretation of whatever rules result post-regatta to be able to reach any conclusions about Moth wing sail potential.

Basically, what I'm saying is that it is far too early in the game to reach conclusions - and we don't know what the game is until the class association can decide on rules.

In my opinion, going down the wing road is probably a mistake for the Moth class - as Babbage and others have stated. I'm really interested in the wing technology development, but the high probability of killing the class due to cost would be a mistake.

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I knew this was hidden somewhere in your psyche! Don't you understand that the results of the wing in this regatta have aleviated almost everybody's fear of the wing-for cost or for any other reason?
The class is a development class! "Going down the wing road" is now more likely than it would have been if the first ones had been the breakthru some feared. It is not and may never be but legislating the wing out when it has not won a single race is not likely. At least Burvills foils were fast.
And you totally ignore the comments from Adam May who said he thought a wing could probably be built for the same cost as a normal rig. Why do you ignore that? Production of a developed wing would surely result in lower costs.
I hope the naysayers(Babbage, AMAC and? ) don't get their way. All the arguments against the wing that you've made are bogus because they are based on too little information. Let the development continue and let there be another vote when all the facts are known in a few years time.
Trifling with "development" in a development class is a road not to be traveled lightly especially with information based on poorly built prototypes that have shown themselves to be no performance threat whatsoever from any perspective.
The Wing development should continue!

 

Moth on Foils-The Worlds

Incredible video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAPyI3jVsjA&feature=player_embedded


From Scuttlebutt Europe:


Extreme conditions today left their marks on me and the boat. Managed to complete 2 of the 3 races but was unable to compete in the third. It was a total physics lesson today with vmg's, displacement and material strength testing.

The first day of gold fleet racing was surreal, lining up against all the top notch guys. And it was windy again.

Successful forward progress involved hiking full out in the straps and balancing the massive puffs, all of which was extremely challenging and rewarding. And then you had to choose which vmg you wanted to go - 12knots high mode (close to the wind) or 17 knots low mode (more open sail trim).

Tacking was different as well. Normally I'd foil-tack/gybe to change direction, but today I had to learn new techniques again. Getting to the other side of the boat for the new tack involved sailing straight into the wind until boat slowed enough for me to control the degree of windward heel for the new tack. (It was too windy for anyone to do a foiling tack, at least not yet; needed to learn the new conditions.)

I mentioned yesterday how the guys were ready to share techniques and ideas. Well, I talked to them afterwards and they told me they had no vang on; I had half, which, apparently, is way too much in 25 knots. Still you live and learn.

I had heard a 'crack' in the rudder gantry a few days ago and had it looked at. We applied some carbon fiber to reinforce the area, but apparently it wasn't enough to do the job. The rudder loads downwind were excessive and extreme, and I heard another 'crack' during the second race. In between the 2nd and 3rd races, as I made my way to the water boat (to get water), the rudder gantry, that holds the rudder to boat, exploded. I'm out for the 3rd race. Mach2 boats are designed very well and strong, but the forces and leverages exerted at these speeds wears and tears any materials on this planet. Maybe someday, we will find a stronger, lighter material!

Overall, I learned a lot, particularly about what angles to use when coming into a mark at Mach2 speed, and that throwing on more reinforcing carbon is one way to ensure I will be able sail another race. Lay day tomorrow and well needed. Six races left. -- Brad Funk, www.FunkSaling.com

 

Doug:

I have no dogs in this fight in regards to wings sails in (or out of) the Moth class. It doesn't affect me one way or the other. From a dinghy sailor perspective, I've watched classes succeed and survive, and I've watched classes fail and die. Sanctioning and promoting major rule changes that will have a significant effect on class membership and affordability has to be done very carefully. I think the class is right to debate this carefully, and I'll respect their decision either way it goes. I take time to understand and appreciate BOTH sides of the issue.

Although it gets attention far beyond it's actual numbers, the Moth class is in a very fragile and vulnerable state - it is the most expensive and costly to operate single hand performance dinghy (at World's caliber boat) there is. Wing sails will increase both those numbers (purchase and operational cost). Do I think cost is an issue affecting the number of people who can participate in a dinghy class? Yes. Certainly is for me, but then again I'm an average Joe who has to work for a living and I'm not going to inherit a estate to fund my sailing addiction.

Do I think Adam May is out in left field in regards to his optimistic wing sail cost estimates? Absolutely. We just watched some of the best in the world at Object 2 build prototype Moth wings that are not up to the usage (and abuse) levels necessary for Moth racing. The combination of materials, equipment, facilities, quality control and skill is expensive no matter how optimistically you look at it. Adam May's wing hasn't been tested in conditions like Object 2's samples. Beyond the equipment and materials, composite fabrication is a very skilled endeavor, where experience is critical to success. Laminate schedules, layups, curing methods, excess resin elimination, weight optimization and consistent results are all not easy to get right. Yes, I'd bet Steve Clark could do it economically. I know I could not and I've got experience building lightweight dinghies. I'd have to purchase and master vacuum bagging equipment and materials. I'd have to build and refine a huge curing oven. I'd have to get hands-on experience in consistently fabricating composite cored components that meet strength, weight and precision requirements using expensive materials. I'd have to fabricate and build molds and tooling before the first parts could be laid up. Oh, yeah and I'd have to have a facility that can handle working with dangerous chemicals including positive pressure breathing and acceptable environmental standards. My garage doesn't cut it, as I can't risk my family's main income provider breathing epoxy fumes and carbon dust. Ask Paul Beiker about carbon dust while fairing and off-gassing during chemical curing processes. Local bylaws, building codes and hazardous material codes have to be met if I expect my insurance carrier to continue to assume liability insurance. Do I think they'd pay if they found an uninspected composite fabrication facility at the site of a fire? Nope.

Most of the people out there bleating about how wings can be done as cheap as a conventional rig have no real experience building wings for ultralight dinghy sail boat applications. There just are not that many people out there that have done it, and the small group that has already is past the experience, equipment, molds, tooling and materials issues. It is never as simple as it looks from behind a web browser.

From a guy who actually builds things, and has actually been in shops doing these types of things - I do know what it takes, and I do know what it costs to do it safely and right. Don't know when you last built anything, but I already have got myself a serious epoxy sanding dust problem that aggravates my asthma to the point where I can't afford to risk letting things get worse. Everything in the real world costs money. Dust management systems in the shop cost money. Positive pressure breathing systems cost money. The real cost of building your first component has to include the cost it takes to get the facility there. Building a wing cheap isn't worth shortening your life or setting yourself up for retirement with a respirator and O2 tank on your wheelchair.

Yes, I think Adam May's estimates are complete nonsense. Yes, I think the estimates provided by people who haven't built one are nonsense. I think the only people who can actually authoritatively speak are Steve Clark, Paul Larson and Fred Eaton - the guys who signed the checks to get real lightweight sailboat wings made.

No, I do not agree the O2 wings were poorly made and poor performers. They were well made to standards set for the C Class, but that isn't good enough for Moth usage (and abuse) levels.

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Do you know Adam May's history? I'd say he knows what he is talking about.
He is well known for his innovation and composites knowledge and your remarks are completely out of line. You have a tendency to dump on people whose remarks do not fit your views and that is a shame.