Modification of Tug "Burondi"

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Rabah, Aug 25, 2015.

  1. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 247
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    Location: Bulgaria

    Rabah Senior Member

    Hi All,
    I want to show you how from the published information in the Internet it is possible to make natural computer model.
    The problem is not only in obtaining absolutely precise copy, but also in a volume at making model to offer that new.
    I do not know such ship-building designers who would create new ship without usage data existing in operations of one or several prototypes.
    It is made both after relation of outlines and coefficients of fineness and after relation of weighting characteristics.
    This process called „affine conversion“, explicitly is studied in discipline „Designing of the ship“ in section „Development of the Linesplan“.
    If to change only the main sizes on X, Y and Z, then the customary term this "scaling".
    Continuation follows.
    Здравствуйте все,
    Хочу вам показать как из опубликованную информацию в Интернет можно сделать собственная компьютерная модель.
    Проблема не только в получении абсолютно точного копия, но и в том при создании модели предложить что то новое.
    Я не знаю таких судостроительный дизайнеров, которые создали бы новое судно без использования данные существующих в эксплуатации одного или нескольких прототипов.
    Это делается как по отношении обводов и коэффициентов полноты так и по отношении весовых характеристик / измерители веса /.
    Этот процесс называемый „афинное преобразование“ подробно изучается в дисциплине „Проектирование судна“ в разделе „Разработка теоретического чертежа“.
    Если менять только главные размеры по X,Y и Z, тогда общепринятый термин это „масштабирование“.
    Продолжение следует.
    _________________________
    NA Razmik Baharyan
     

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  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Are you suggesting you have a new way to "splash" an existing design? Well, maybe in Bulgaria you can steal other folks work, but you'd probably not want to try this in a first world country. Simply put, I'm pretty confidant if you attempt to copy and produce (or sell plans) to the tug you've shown, OSD will sue you and in these cases, the outfit with the most money, wins. How deep are your pockets?
     
  3. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Yes, the affine transformation is a very useful tool, used for many, many years. What is worth clarifying the difference with the "scaling" is that in this case the variation in X, Y or Z occurs at the same rate, while in the affine transformation each dimension varies in a different proportion.
    Have you ever thought in changing the draft at different proportion than depth?
     
  4. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: Bulgaria

    Rabah Senior Member

    How I have created my modification?
    1. I have found the necessary information in the Internet - Tug Burondi / Lbp=31,2m/
    2. I have decided to change the round bilge with double bilge chine and to make sides more pitched / see and compare in Bodyplan/.
    3. I searched and have found such prototype about such forms - Demo Tug 24,5m on Delftship Professional.
    4. I have made scaling Demo Tug up to sizes Burondi on X, Y and Z in Delftship Professional.
    5. By means of function Background Image on Delftship Professional I have imposed side view of Burondi from Internet from above the side view with the new overall dimensions Demo Tug - image Burondi from Internet should be scaled on a length and height.
    6. By means of extraction of contour control points I unified the contour of new model with contour Burondi from Internet / the contour of the deck and buttock-line CL/.
    7. I have traced keel on contour Burondi.
    8. After the check of model it is necessary the inscription “ Model is OK ” will appear.
    Continuation follows.

    Как я создал мою модификацию?
    1. Нашел необходимую информацию в Интернете - Tug Burondi / Lbp=31,2m/
    2. Решил изменить круглую скулу с двойным скуловым сломам и сделать борта более наклоненными / смотри и сравни в Bodyplan/.
    3. Я искал и нашел такого прототипа с такие формы - Demo Tug 24,5m на Delftship Professional.
    4. Сделал масштабирование Demo Tug до размеров Burondi по X,Y и Z в Delftship Professional.
    5. Посредством функции Background Image на Delftship Professional наложил боковой вид Burondi от Интернете сверху бокового вида с новыми габаритами Demo Tug - изображение Burondi от Интернете надо масштабировать по длину и высоту.
    6. Посредством вытягивания контурных контрольных точек унифицировал контур новой модели с контуром Burondi из Интернета / контур палубы и батокс CL /.
    7. Начертал киль по контура Burondi.
    8. После проверки модели надо появится надпись “Model is OK”.
    Продолжение следует.
    __________________________
    NA Razmik Baharyan
     

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  5. DCockey
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Midcoast Maine

    DCockey Senior Member

    What would be the legal basis of such a lawsuit? Patent only applies if particular features are copied which are covered by a current patent. Copyright does not apply to boats.
     
  6. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: Bulgaria

    Rabah Senior Member

    Hi Par,
    It is not necessary to trouble about me - my skin is thick. I have got used to attack me any spiteful and envious people which are afraid to receive and insert new, more rational ideas. Can be and it is one of reasons for that the socialism has failed.
    Each person himself personally it is necessary to respond before the law if not observes copyrights.
    I hot recommend you to not make any hints on relation of Bulgaria, country in which I was born, regardless of the fact that at present she is poor, humiliated and crucify from the waves of refugees.
    On relation OSD I would think that instead of the sanction without delay I have received from them thankful e-mail for that I offer technologically a best more version than existing.
    Certainly it is a joke. They are clever people also will not be engaged in a fines.
    Except for that they have decided to publish general arrangement of the tug in the Internet and it means that clever experts can use it to create that new and more improved. But it is obvious you does not touch.

    Не надо беспокоиться обо мне - моя шкура толстая. Я привык меня атаковать всякие злобные и завистливые люди, которые боятся принимать и внедрить новые, более рациональные предложения. Может быть и это одна из причин для того что социализм рухнул.
    Каждый человек сам лично надо отвечать перед закона если не соблюдает авторские права.
    Я тебе горячо рекомендую не делать никаких намеков по отношению Болгарии, страна в которую я родился, независимо от того что в данный момент она бедная, униженная и растянутая на крест от волны беженцев.
    По отношению OSD я думаю что вместо санкции скорее я бы получил от них благодарственный имейл для того что предлагаю технологически более лучшего варианта чем существующий.
    Разумеется это шутка. Они умные люди и не будут заниматься мелочами.
    Кроме того они сами решили опубликовать общее расположение буксира в Интернете и это означает что умные специалисты могут ими пользоваться чтобы создать что то нового и более усовершенствованного. Но явно это тебе не касается.
    ________________________________
    NA Razmik Baharyan
     
  7. FMS
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Location: united states

    FMS Senior Member

    Reverse engineering is always a sensitive subject. I would be surprised if major aerospace and automotive companies didn't reverse engineer and model competitors designs for analysis. Don't be surprised you've gotten backlash talking about doing it though.
     
  8. boatenthusiast
    Joined: Jul 2015
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    Location: canada

    boatenthusiast Junior Member

    half of these people do it , just do it and get the experience
     
  9. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: Bulgaria

    Rabah Senior Member

    Hi Tansl,
    For your information I used three different coefficients - on X, Y and Z for scaling Demo Tug 24,5m.
     
  10. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    Naturally, otherwise it could not be called "affine transformation". Can you use different scales for the draft and the depth?
    It is laudable your noble attempt to improve existing projects. But simply changing the chines not mean that the boat is better. Quite possibly you get much worse boat than the existing one (at least from the construction point of view, you complicate much the hull). Boats that you use as a model surely are the result of many years of experience, work in many different projects, analysis of boats working, better adaptation to the type of propulsion. If the designer has not put a chines as yours, surely, it is for some reason. Or do you think that such a simple change had not occurred to him ?.
    I would like than, besides to show us that you dominate 3D modeling, you will explain the theory behind the improvements, in your opinion, are introduced into your models. As you know, I think that some of the changes that you enter can be very bad. For many Maxsurf graphics that you show, they do not indicate anything. You should show the results of the original ship in order to compare with your "inventions". That would be an interesting exercise for all. Can we discuss it kindly?
     
  11. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: Bulgaria

    Rabah Senior Member

    Hi everybody,
    First I want to thank all which have made comments because it likely to increase interest reading in the forum to this subject.
    Now I want to pay your attention to the last part of my explanations.
    Probably you are surprised what for it is necessary to copy in the Side projection except for buttock-line CL and the present superstructure of tug Burondi. In initial it is necessary for receiving the silhouette as a first approximation /see the file/ and for determination downflooding points of the hull at accident. It at all does not mean that in the final work design the Silhouette of the ship will be not changed depending on preference of the client.
    The following step in initial project stages is development of all calculations of hydrostatics, intact stability and unsinkability.
    Readers it is possible to see similar calculations made by program Delftship Professional for Tug 25m
    <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/hydrostatics-intact-stability-tug-25m-53992.html>
    It is possible to make and the following – with IGES file can be import the new model in other programs, for example Shape Maker v.2.0
    /see the file Linesplan/.
    It is possible import in Maxsurf Modeler and with Maxsurf Stability to make all necessary calculations. For example it is necessary to supplement the table for all tanks and to calculate the correction for free surfaces. The last stage of calculations is Unsinkability and the Stability and Unsinkability booklet. You can see all this as is made out for other similar tug in a link <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/calculation-intact-stability-unsinkability-asd-tug-fv_34m-50860.html>
    The modification created by me has major technological advantage. In first-order this decrease production costs.
    And those which assure that azimuting devices cannot be installed to the bottom with deadrise, it is obvious for them there is no sufficient hands-on experience /see Damen ASD Tug 2810 from the publication for Tug 25m/.
    In long run all is reduced before the exact design units between the bottom with deadrise and azimuting devices.

    Сначала хочу поблагодарить всем которые сделали комментарии, потому что это наверно повысить интерес читающих в форуме к этой теме.
    Теперь хочу сосредоточить ваше внимание к последней части моих обьяснений.
    Возможно вы удивляетесь зачем необходимо в Боковую проекцию копировать кроме батокса CL и существующую надстройку буксира Burondi. В начальном стадии проектирования это необходимо для получения Силуэта в первом приближении /смотри файл/ и для определения критических точек заливания корпуса при аварии. Это совсем не означает что в окончательном рабочем проекте силуэт судна не изменится в зависимости от предпочитания клиента.
    Следующий шаг в начальном стадии проекта это разработка всех расчетов гидростатики, остойчивости неповрежденного судна и непотопляемости.
    Читатели можно увидеть подобные расчеты сделанные программой Delftship Professional для Tug 25m <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/hydrostatics-intact-stability-tug-25m-53992.html>
    Можно сделать и следующее - новую модель посредством IGES файл можно импортировать в других программ, например Shape Maker v.2.0 / смотри файл теоретического чертежа /.
    Возможeн импорт и в Maxsurf Modeler и посредством Maxsurf Stability сделать все необходимые расчеты. Например надо пополнять таблицу для всех танков и вычислить поправку для свободных поверхностей. Последний этап расчетов является Непотопляемость и составление Информации об остойчивости и непотопляемости. Вы можете все это увидеть как оформлено для другого подобного буксира в линке <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/calculation-intact-stability-unsinkability-asd-tug-fv_34m-50860.html>
    Созданная мною модификация имеет большое технологическое преимущество. В первой очереди это снижение производственных расходов.
    А те которые уверяют что азимутные устройства невозможно монтировать к днищем с килеватостью, явно у них нет достаточного практического опыта /смотри Damen ASD Tug 2810 от публикацию для Tug 25m/.
    В конце концов все сводится до правильного проектирования конструктивных узлов между днищем с килеватостью и азимутного устройства.
    ___________________________
    NA Razmik Baharyan
     

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  12. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    I'm sure those changes increase, a lot, production costs. But in any case, explain why you say they are reduced. You have replaced ruled surfaces, by surfaces with two curvatures. One could speak, perhaps, of hydrodynamic improvements but would have to justify that with some study a bit more sophisticated than your simple words.
    Nobody said you can not install azimut devices in bottoms with deadrise. Instead, they must have deadrise. Please read what others write and if you do not understand, say so and I'll explain.
    Always willing to help in the case of a serious discussion.
    By the way, I also have drawings of tugboats body lines and 3D models, but that does not mean that I know much about them.
     

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  13. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Rabah Senior Member

    Hi Tansl,
    Will suffice mislead readers! I exchange the bicurvature with single! From the file it is visible that the bicurvature is only in area with red color in the stern and only 3 area from the bottom. The everything else in green color has single curvature - developable surface.
    On relation Azimuting devices I quote your words for tug 25m:
    “First: propellers often wear those ships can not be installed at the stern that you have designed. Stern needs a completely flat areas that your boat does not have.”
    Why "flat area"? If in the stern there is a deadrise plus single longitudinal curvature of the bottom in your opinion leaves that is impossible to assemble ASD. It is not a clever conclusion!
    _______________________
    NA Razmik Baharyan
     

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  14. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Dear Rabah, a flat surface may have inclination (deadrise), need not to be horizontal. The area where the crowns of the propellers are located, should be flat, not horizontal. Analyze your concepts.
    Some small areas not ruled under any circumstances can lower costs of production. Also reviews these concepts, please.
    When you have clear your ideas, we´ll continue talking. Meanwhile, you're going to let me do not to answer you. I do not like arguing with a partner that mixes and confuses the concepts.
     

  15. Rabah
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: Bulgaria

    Rabah Senior Member

    Hi All,
    I am admired! Excellent performance of Tansl for keying public opinion with aim for discrediting and elimination the eventual competitiveness!
    Yes, there where occurs the extremity of logically sustained arguments, the animosity and envy there are born! In effect it is not a quarantined phenomenon, but it is speciality of present lifestyle.
    But for me absolutely it doesn't matter whether Tansl, Par, Ad Hoc or other accept or not that I have made. For me the most important it is requests Rules of Classification organization, International code on intact stability, Rules IMO, ISO, SOLAS and in the issue as well requests of the surveyor of Classification organization if business reaches ultimately carried out classification project.
    All of you know that the design companies publish about the advertising purpose General arrangement of the projected ships in tracking by the brief specification.
    But never publish data about hydrostatics, intact stability and unsinkability.
    So that to make comparison of my calculations with respective data of the prototype this is absurd sentence which it is impossible to execute.
    I want to make improvement: That I offer at all is not an invention, it is only sentence for a best version of the hull.
    That which is not convinced that a bilge with single or double chines technologically more successful than rounded bilge /for small steel ships or from an aluminum alloy/, he have very small hands-on experience on technological development for construction of ships.
    The hull will be much simple and easy for assembly and welding. An example see yacht "Hydra" of Kurt Reinke / L=14m/.
    Such bilge can be applied at a length of ship up to 40-50m for displacement ships /tugs, push boats or other ships of auxiliary fleet/.

    Я восхищен! Отличное исполнение Tansl для манипуляции общественного мнения с целю дискредитирование и элиминирование эвентуальной конкуренции!
    Да, там где наступает конец логически выдержанных аргументов, там рождаются озлобление и зависть! В сущности это не является изолированным явлением, а отличительная черта нынешнего образа жизни.
    Но для меня абсолютно нет никакого значения Tansl, Par, Ad Hoc или другие принят ли или нет то что я сделал. Для меня самые важные это требования Правилах Классификационной организации, Международный код по остойчивости, Правила IMO,ISO , SOLAS и в конечном итоге также и требования инспектора Классификационной организации, если дело доходит до окончательно выполненного классификационного проекта.
    Всем вам известно что дизайнерские компании публикуют с рекламную цель Общего расположения своих проектированных судов в сопровождении краткой спецификацией.
    Но никогда не публикуют данные о гидростатике, остойчивости и непотопляемости.
    Так что сделать сравнение моих расчетов со соответствующих данных прототипа это абсурдное предложение которое невозможно исполнить.
    Хочу сделать уточнение: То что предлагаю отнюдь не является изобретением, это только предложение для лучшего варианта корпуса.
    Тот который не убежден что скула с единичным или двойным сломам технологически более удачливая чем круглая скула / при малых стальных судов или от алюминиевого сплава /, у него есть очень малого практического опыта по технологических разработок для постройки судов.
    Корпус будет на много простым и легким для сборки и сварки. Пример яхта „Гидра“ на Курт Рейнке / L=14m/.
    Такую скулу спокойно можно приложить при длины судна до 40-50m при водоизмещающих судов / буксиры, толкачи или другие суда вспомогательного флота /.
    ___________________________
    NA Razmik Baharyan
     
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