Modern professional ferrocement boatbuilders?

Look through this opinion 2 or 3 times. It reads as good as any abstract from a doctorate level thesis. No small amount of effort goes into penning this type of quality response. I'm not sure if I just had a history lesson, or an economics lesson, or a engineering lesson.

Crasch,,,, I think you could explain what your ferro plans are. You might get a slight ribbing, but by and large some of these forum members have more knowledge and experience than I could achieve in two lifetimes.

Brendan. Happily I've never owned one. Nor built one. Wood, plywood, composites, aluminium, steel but not ferro. I have met people, amateurs and pros who made it. I even seen ferro boats in construction. As naval engineer I learnt the basis for building in ferro as the method is used for several applications in marine engineering of harbour installations.

There is a good record for simple barges built with coefficients of civil engineering, basically floating boxes. When you have the steel molds, the vapour heating for an accelerated cure, and when weight is not a major concern it's pretty good. The main cost on barges is the hull.
For boats where weight is a very major concern it doesn't work compared to simple steel welded with a cheap stick welder. If ferro was just as good as ordinary steel and best of all cheaper, we would see many ferro cement boats and ships. However ferrocement boats are rare, almost oddities. That's a fact. Why?
Simply because the material is not good enough for boatbuilding for a lot of reasons, the first one being structural. That's my opinion (I'm not alone).

For yachts and fishing boats it's not so cheap when you make the final sum. Very labor intensive, and the method is not so simple if you want a good quality for a high sea boat. Finally it's simpler to weld a steel plate on some flats and angles than cementing a mesh laboriously installed on a structure of welded steel bars, and waiting 28 days for the cure, plus the delay for drying.
A bunch were built in France in the 70ties. In terms of percentage very few survived, maybe less than 3%.
I have surveyed several (3 or 4 for eventual buyers, 2 fishing boats made by a pro shipyard as expert for legal problems and a few for people asking me if it was interesting to restore them).
Except one made expensively in Holland, having more steel and epoxy than cement and so heavy that it was a bad sail boat and not a good motor boat, all the others were junk after a few years at sea. Internal corrosion, and structural problems.

The two 15 meters fishing boats, were made by a specialist of concretes and ferro with the best of the best materials, on design by a good naval architect with lots of engineering and consultants. The FAO gave its blessing, the fishing authorities talked about revolution in boat building.
They resulted being heavy, too costly to make, and expensive to exploit. After 7-8 years of work they began to show signs of fatigue with a myriad of hairline cracks on the cyclic stresses points. Thus the legal liability problems and the survey made by several specialists in different domains. The builder was not happy when he saw the results after so much work and tooling investment. The "owners" were not happy. The Credit Maritime, the financier and final owner because of the mortgages, was not happy at all.
Unanimous verdict; unsafe, there was not more the structural integrity needed for a safe working boat, and the boats were aging very fast. Finally the boats were salvaged and the hulls destroyed. A wood fishing boat lasts 30 years at least, as polyester and steel. These ferro were junk at 8 years, after an unsuccessful career. Maybe very bad luck, maybe somewhere engineering mistakes, maybe simply the material is not for fishing boats with vibrating diesel engines.
Morality, when you say the word ferro about fishing boats in Brittany, everybody grabs a cross and spills holy water. There were on 2013 4537 commercial fishing boats in France. None in ferro cement.
In Cuba as I have heard myself from Cuban naval engineers they stopped after horrific experiences, the excellent Cuban rum surely made the stories more epic. But the Cuban need urgently cheap fishing boats, if ferro was the solution they would be making them by dozens. Idem in Central America.
We should ask the Chinese, they made thousands when the Great Party decided in the 70's that was the way for a radiant future. How many survived at least 15 years? There is nowadays a ship building industry in ferrocement boats in China?

After a fast search there is plenty of literature on Internet; the FAO made in 1995 a book about ferro fishing boats, it's the most recent and some of the claims are grossly inexact. It looks like the rewriting of a 70s book. Also plenty of re-edited books, and PDF of studies, papers and so on. All that has been written during the 70's.
After; black out. I did not find any recent serious professional book or technical paper about ferro on working boats.

It seems that there are very few built now. There must be a reason. I guess it's because when you compare ferro with the other boatbuilding methods there are no advantage, but many real and potential inconveniences.
 
Brendan. Happily I've never owned one. Nor built one. Wood, plywood, composites, aluminium, steel but not ferro. I have met people, amateurs and pros who made it. I even seen ferro boats in construction. As naval engineer I learnt the basis for building in ferro as the method is used for several applications in marine engineering of harbour installations.

There is a good record for simple barges built with coefficients of civil engineering, basically floating boxes. When you have the steel molds, the vapour heating for an accelerated cure, and when weight is not a major concern it's pretty good. The main cost on barges is the hull.
For boats where weight is a very major concern it doesn't work compared to simple steel welded with a cheap stick welder. If ferro was just as good as ordinary steel and best of all cheaper, we would see many ferro cement boats and ships. However ferrocement boats are rare, almost oddities. That's a fact. Why?
Simply because the material is not good enough for boatbuilding for a lot of reasons, the first one being structural. That's my opinion (I'm not alone).

For yachts and fishing boats it's not so cheap when you make the final sum. Very labor intensive, and the method is not so simple if you want a good quality for a high sea boat. Finally it's simpler to weld a steel plate on some flats and angles than cementing a mesh laboriously installed on a structure of welded steel bars, and waiting 28 days for the cure, plus the delay for drying.
A bunch were built in France in the 70ties. In terms of percentage very few survived, maybe less than 3%.
I have surveyed several (3 or 4 for eventual buyers, 2 fishing boats made by a pro shipyard as expert for legal problems and a few for people asking me if it was interesting to restore them).
Except one made expensively in Holland, having more steel and epoxy than cement and so heavy that it was a bad sail boat and not a good motor boat, all the others were junk after a few years at sea. Internal corrosion, and structural problems.

The two 15 meters fishing boats, were made by a specialist of concretes and ferro with the best of the best materials, on design by a good naval architect with lots of engineering and consultants. The FAO gave its blessing, the fishing authorities talked about revolution in boat building.
They resulted being heavy, too costly to make, and expensive to exploit. After 7-8 years of work they began to show signs of fatigue with a myriad of hairline cracks on the cyclic stresses points. Thus the legal liability problems and the survey made by several specialists in different domains. The builder was not happy when he saw the results after so much work and tooling investment. The "owners" were not happy. The Credit Maritime, the financier and final owner because of the mortgages, was not happy at all.
Unanimous verdict; unsafe, there was not more the structural integrity needed for a safe working boat, and the boats were aging very fast. Finally the boats were salvaged and the hulls destroyed. A wood fishing boat lasts 30 years at least, as polyester and steel. These ferro were junk at 8 years, after an unsuccessful career. Maybe very bad luck, maybe somewhere engineering mistakes, maybe simply the material is not for fishing boats with vibrating diesel engines.
Morality, when you say the word ferro about fishing boats in Brittany, everybody grabs a cross and spills holy water. There were on 2013 4537 commercial fishing boats in France. None in ferro cement.
In Cuba as I have heard myself from Cuban naval engineers they stopped after horrific experiences, the excellent Cuban rum surely made the stories more epic. But the Cuban need urgently cheap fishing boats, if ferro was the solution they would be making them by dozens. Idem in Central America.
We should ask the Chinese, they made thousands when the Great Party decided in the 70's that was the way for a radiant future. How many survived at least 15 years? There is nowadays a ship building industry in ferrocement boats in China?

After a fast search there is plenty of literature on Internet; the FAO made in 1995 a book about ferro fishing boats, it's the most recent and some of the claims are grossly inexact. It looks like the rewriting of a 70s book. Also plenty of re-edited books, and PDF of studies, papers and so on. All that has been written during the 70's.
After; black out. I did not find any recent serious professional book or technical paper about ferro on working boats.

It seems that there are very few built now. There must be a reason. I guess it's because when you compare ferro with the other boatbuilding methods there are no advantage, but many real and potential inconveniences.

I agree they are far to expensive to build these days. But there are a lot of beautiful ferro boats still sailing around Australia. Khan walkers ferro boats have a great reputation and are sought after. I think a good pro built ferro is as good as any other boat but all the dodgy builds gave it a bad rap. I have seen several which I could not pick as ferro they were so well finished. The walker method of tensioning the armature over molds resulted in a much lighter hull.
 
I agree they are far to expensive to build these days. But there are a lot of beautiful ferro boats still sailing around Australia. Khan walkers ferro boats have a great reputation and are sought after. I think a good pro built ferro is as good as any other boat but all the dodgy builds gave it a bad rap. I have seen several which I could not pick as ferro they were so well finished. The walker method of tensioning the armature over molds resulted in a much lighter hull.
Unless you can solve the labor costs ... know where to lay hands on some Oompa Loompas?

But kidding aside: if I were to try to summarize the criticism of FC hulls it is that far too many haven't lived up to the promises made, though a fair number have just as you mention.

But they don't look like anything but nicely made boats so if someone sees one of them floating next to some goblin-thing guess which one he'll associate with FC?

If I were to add anything to the criticisms given (and I actually would like to own a nice FC boat) it's that an eyesore of a wood, or even steel or aluminum, boat will go away all on its own if nothing is done to it (after enough time the bones of a wood boat can even be scenic) whereas a FC eyesore benefits from that one inescapable advantage of the material. ;)
 
Ferrocement barges and boats started being built in 1860.
The history of ferrocement is initiated by the French gardener Joseph Monier, who in 1847 incorporates steel mesh concrete used in the manufacture of large pots. His compatriot Josep Louis Lambot, the Universal Exhibition of 1855 in Paris, presents the world's first small boat built with mortar reinforced with steel rods and wire, patented in 1852 material, which he calls Fercimen. The rowboat, preserved in the Museum of Brignoles, is 3.66 meters long and 1.22 b readth with between 2.5 and 3.8 inches thick.
Using a similar technique, the Italian constructor C. Gabellini, built ferrocement small boats in 1887.
In the early twentieth century, was built in North America, for the government, a motorboat 5.5 meters long and 1.9 cm hull thick.
At the end of the First World War, to meet the shortage of steel, ferro was employed in building merchant.
 
My Father has owed a Samson designed 48 foot (LWL) ferro-cement ketch since 1984. The hull was commercially built in 1972 by Romack Marine in Long Beach (company no longer exists).

This boat sat on a mooring un-maintained for many years before being bought, fixed up and sold to my Dad.

We subsequently found several problems the seller glossed over, including soft spots in the hull, which we subsequently repaired after hauling the boat.

If properly built and maintained these can be good boats. However, as with any boat electrolysis and rust is an issue that must be dealt with. Further, the quality of the hull construction is not readily visible and hard to assess. If commercially made there is a good chance quality construction materials and practices were employed. The quality of DIY/home built hulls is highly variable. It could be superior quality or junk depending on the builder's choices of materials, attention to details and use of appropriate construction processes.

My Father and I have experience repairing the ferro-cement hull of his boat and from my first hand experience it can be done by a non-professional. However, it requires attention to the use of proper materials and procedures as well as an investment of time. Our hull repairs have held up for 10 years so far.

I am not aware of any commercial manufacturers of Ferro-cement boats at this time. I believe there is an active Ferro-Cement user group in Australuia/New Zealand (Colin Brooks - Hartley)

Regards,

Craig
 
don't forget all the hippies in Alviso, CA during the 1970s.

many were building craft that (thankfully) seemed to have little chance of making it to the water, except in a flood (which happens regularly there).

Some were down right bizarre, with designs that looked more like 1970s vintage sci-fi star-ships.

Some included large garden areas, for some sort of WaterWorld survival.
 
I'm looking for consulting on a ferrocement marine project. Are there any modern professional ferrocement boatbuilders still around? For example:

Colin Brookes
Ed Sayer
Bayfield Yachts
Morley Sutherland
Richard Hartley
Cecil Norris

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Just the other day I was dream gazing on Yachtworld and there was a listing for a FC yacht of good size that is near completion and not launched. They mentioned the builders and I presume that they were in California.

To find the boat select ferrocement as your hull material. I believe she was 58'-ish if that will help narrow the search.
 
Most larger engineering schools have teams that enter concrete canoe competitions, these modern and exotic designs look remarkable compared to the ferro-cement hulls of the past. They use special modern reinforcement, admixtures and other advanced methods to make it much more structurally efficient. Not sure about the labor involved, but all boat hull construction is labor intensive.

If you need to design a similar structure I would suggest find out who the top winning teams of this international contest are and see if you could hire them to design hull the OP had in mind.

a few pics of some amazing concrete canoes:

VICTORIOUS2.jpg


https://www.engr.wisc.edu/news/archive/2000/Jul17.html

UT_Tyler_Concrete_Canoe.png

http://knue.com/the-university-of-texas-at-tyler-wins-regional-concrete-canoe-competition-video/

concrete-canoe.jpg

http://www.clarkson.edu/news/2012/news-release_2012-04-13-4.html

concrete-canoe.jpg

https://www.rit.edu/cast/cetems/clubs-activities
 
Petros, these school competitions have not direct practical purpose but fun and mental exercise to get the max from the basic material.
You take an object and you have to make it with the least convenient material. We had the challenge to make a canoe with toilet paper, polyester rope and the paint or varnish of our choice (only "ordinary" mono-component paint or varnish, the epoxy and bi components paints were excluded). Any other material forbidden except gel silica and talc for thickening. That was great fun, we got floating ugly canoes, we raced with. But I wouldn't recommend toilet paper and paint as naval material.
If you make a search in Internet to get the characteristics of the canoes, none is really interesting and none approaches those of a wooden or composite canoe.
I would remark that all these canoes can be made far cheaper with far less work with other materials. A native birch canoe, which is beautiful engineering using simple forest materials and astounding craftmanship, is more interesting and is highly successful.

At least for working boats, with the low prices of steel, even the Corten, cheap welders, plasma cutters and sand blasters, you can make anywhere a fishing boat above 30 feet in hard chine steel. It's simple and straightforward. No molds, just a flat floor, you cut, you weld, you paint. Easy to modify later, easy to repair. Ferrocement can't match that.
For yachts , as the hull is about 25% of the total cost thus the eventual savings by the ferro cement are marginal, is better to use a more convenient material.
All the examples given in this thread are anecdotal, none proves that ferro is a convenient, widely used, and commercially successful material.
 
The Navy ferro cement manuals are up on this site. There was also a NAVY study of FC boats for local construction in Vietnam published as a SNAME paper a while ago - there may be other as well as plenty of student papers on the FC canoe contests. These are probably good resources to begin with.

FC has a place, but one "problem" with FC is that unlike metal, wood or composite (wood planking over mrtal), CNC still doesn't help FC much whereas it has revolutionized all of the other techniques, so FC is still largely stuck in the 70's at least as regards labor costs.

It is possible to make a "good" FC boat, but it will take a lot of labor.
 
The Navy ferro cement manuals are up on this site. There was also a NAVY study of FC boats for local construction in Vietnam published as a SNAME paper a while ago - there may be other as well as plenty of student papers on the FC canoe contests. These are probably good resources to begin with.

FC has a place, but one "problem" with FC is that unlike metal, wood or composite (wood planking over mrtal), CNC still doesn't help FC much whereas it has revolutionized all of the other techniques, so FC is still largely stuck in the 70's at least as regards labor costs.

It is possible to make a "good" FC boat, but it will take a lot of labor.

So-called wire-plank seems to address some of the issues, however, even then the (if you'll pardon the expression) underlaying problem still exist.

Any unfairness in the armature cannot be easily, or lightly, addressed by plastering and I will also opine that as the higher strength, less permeable concretes may be used this effect may be all the more serious because these need less covering thickness (so people will try to use less) so there may be less to work with to fair.

Again, wire plank is still better, but care (= time) in making the armature remains necessary.

That said, the technique of using a female mold, applying concrete and pressing steel into that may be worthwhile ... but then the armature is discontinuous and you've already built a fair mold one might also use for glass....
 
Petros ... Golf ball dimples in a boat?

Does that actually work without the hull (improbably and unsafely) spinning?

BTW: found this great funny quote: "When I tried a similar principal, using barnacles, I found it did not have the desired effect." -- "Wingless" on The Hull Truth Boating Forum
 
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