Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    ALL, but really ALL you contribute here is just utter nonsense. When will you release the pain from us?
    Must I pay you to shut your mouth?
     
  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Not that I would be the one, but look at my reply on your post, one page back. I contradict your statement about his expertise on any sort of boat. Whats that autopilot drivel? He has never seen a modern AP unit, let alone understood how to adjust them.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  3. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    Richard, normally I would agree with your statement that a realistic every day speed of S/L of 1.0 is what you want before you start to gobble fuel and cannot carry enough but I disagree in light long passagemakers.

    Here me out. I think boats start to gobble fuel when wave making starts to become a real part of the game. From experience I think that figure is around 80% of theoretical hull speed. Let's take two examples.

    A 22 meter boat at 100 tons and a 19 meter boat at 16 tones.

    For suggestive purposes let's say the 22 meter boat has a LWL of 20 meters so the D/L is around 380. She is comfortable and carries enough fuel for a 4000 nm range at an S/L of 1.0

    Her theoretical hull speed is S/L = 8.26/380^.311 = 1.30 Now 80% of that figure is 0.8 * 1.3 = 1.04 or 8.4 knots. We are right at the S/L 1.0 mark.

    The 22m boat is going to have all the comforts of home and a fantastic ride, no doubt.


    Now let's take the skinny 19 meter boat

    D/L = 96 Her theoretical hull speed is 8.26/96^.311 = 2.0

    80% of 2.0 is = an S/L of 1.6 or 11.9 knots up to this point most of the drag is form/friction drag and not wave making. Light long boats tend to roll much more than heavy boats if you don't push them a bit and since wave making isn't a big issue you can still get the range. Friction drag can still raise fuel consumption quite a bit so for boats of this type, practical is between S/L 1.2 and 1.4. This is precisely what Dashew does. He runs Windhorse on long passages between S/L of 1.2 and 1.4 with low fuel consumption. You would get a much rougher ride at S/L 1.0.

    It's very easy to get a low form drag long skinny hull even with the higher Cp's needed for these speeds.
     
  4. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    From Beebe

    Seeing as this is the MINIMUM passagemaker thread, I would think that these minimal miles, not 3000, not 5000 should be applied
     
  5. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    The modern multi both powered and sail, track like they are on rails, especially when coupled with quality foil shaped rudders, not the usual flat plate that passes as a rudder on many vessels
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Of course, we know that the lower D/L makes the game easier. Unfortunately will the market in the end buy the wider boat, for reasons we all know. Tad has brought his PML concept up, long before Dashew knew how to spell it. Many others had similar concepts or thoughts. Bad luck, the people buy N-havns plastic crap instead, and they buy it as if it was cheap, good or capable.

    Maybe we should talk about the 1. minimal, 2. ideal, 3. maximal, 4. perfect Passagemaker?

    And then about the 5. best selling............

    Regards
    Richard
     
  7. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    Beebe also said its likely he could be proved wrong with a light long aluminum hulled passagemaker. That change to a lower range in my opinion would raise the overall costs of passagemaking. Size and range are not the issue, total operating costs are the issue. I still think the minimum length you want for cheap travel is going to be over 50' and probably closer to 60'. Now its probably going to end up being about 10' wide or so and its got to weigh enough to give you a good ride. Now if we take out fuel we are likely need to take out some water tanks too. Then we need to put something in its place and its likely to be more expensive than a tanks.

    Just because a boat is 60' X 10' does not mean that every nook and cranny has to be jamed full of expensive add ons and gear like you would find in a 40' boat. The accommodations could be fairly simple with a lot of storage in the bow and stern and plenty of room to service the systems. The cost of the hull is not where the money is really at so why not save a bundle on operating costs by going with a much longer hull.
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Yeah, nice thought........
    not real world but nice.
    So a passagemaker makes passages restricted by Sabahcats experience and calc.s? Transat being sufficient, Transpac not required? Are you drugged?

    And leave your Cat nonsense. Cats don´t stand severe weather, like it or not. I know you will immediately show your rooster behaviour, but that does not make it better. And neither does all the Cat communities repeated claims and drivel. Physical laws tell you easily why my statement is true, and your contradiction is wrong. But you will never accept that.
    Impressive enough, every other race on the open ocean shows us what happens, when Cats are forced in harsh conditions, but the religious believers never get that.

    Go, dream your dream, and stay out of severe conditions. You might get more miles in the end, than a monohull guy, but do not try to convince old salts of your belief.

    Cats are not capable of standing severe conditions, period!

    My best
    Regards
    Richard
     
  9. cthippo
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 809
    Likes: 50, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 465
    Location: Bellingham WA

    cthippo Senior Member

    Really, Richard WHY do you do this? If it pisses you off so much, why do you keep coming back? if you took all the energy you put into being pissed off at people on these forums and put it into whatever you love to do, I can't help but think you'd be a happier person.

    You can't change what other people do, only how you react to it.
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I missed you already.

    Don´t worry, I am happy.
    My time here is not much. Only my online time is somedays over 16 hrs or so. 1/2 of a hour I enjoy to learn and contribute. Another half to hammer on dumb heads like yours.:p
     
  11. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    Others suggest that passagemakers need only be capable of crossing the Atlantic
    I even showed the comment above but clearly you are to ignorant to acknowledge the statement
    Seeing as this is the MINIMUM passagemaker thread , the MINIMUM amount is enough.

    For me, I'll have only a need of 1000nm, but be capable of twice that, most would call that a passage but clearly not you

    ********
    Plenty of cats out there being used commercially by private and military

    Competent and sensible skippers can either use parachutes to park (instead of bashing into) or even more intelligent still (something you are clearly lacking in) will pick a weather window that is suitable for the passage and vessel used

    Says the biggest COCK on this forum (and I am not saying that in a flattering way)

    Where did I say they are better?
    I only said there is another alternative
    Something your pea brain cannot comprehend.

    This'd be like the same drivel you repeat here ad nauseum day in day out again and again

    Real life experience shows why you theory aint worth ****
    Leave it in the classroom

    No you wont will you
    Whats that ? Set the fastest times?

    Like I said, a smart skipper without time constraints can pick a weather window, people do it every day
    Personally, I am smart enough not to want to take my vessel around the globe via the polar caps and strongest winds.

    Thanks I will and I plan to avoid shitty weather whenever I can

    So you admit that you are a belligerent old **** set in his old ways
    Thanks for that

    And stop trying to brainwash the world that your way is the only way
    It makes you look even more of an idiot

    Says the dinosaur that is clearly clueless
     
  12. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    Pretty much my thought
    40 ft cat but on 50 ft hulls
    Accom. for a couple in a king size bed with guests on convertible lounge or air mattress
    Large refrigeration
    Large stable hard dinghy
    2 x 65hp non turbo engines
    Not much storage as it gets filled with weight, plenty of air, buoyancy and waterline length
     
  13. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Actually Sabahcat 1000 miles range is a good number. Most of the world is within your range. When you try to go greater than 1000nm, the design of the boat and the budget of its owner suffers. One of the reasons yacht shipping...dockexpress and these types are so successful is that boat owners realize they very seldom must make a long oceanic trips and when they do...put it on the ship. The cost and compromise needed to achieve long range capability is money spent in the wrong area. Best to spend your hard earned money enjoying your vessel and cruising around Oh and if I were you I wouldn't even waste my time responding to Apex. That man has some kind of personality disorder and when you respond to his taunts, the thought process of the thread is lost and all its readers suffer. .
     
  14. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 2,580
    Likes: 123, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1650
    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    To comment a couple of points..
    Peace! :)
     

  15. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

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