MAS Epoxy - Not worth it! (infusion: data on hardener use at various temperatures)

Discussion in 'Materials' started by CatBuilder, Jan 18, 2012.

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  1. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    I feel a duty to report this.

    I had some problems with MAS epoxy not giving me any data on what hardener combo to use at various temperatures. They only give a ratio for the 3 part mix for 77F. I wanted information like every other epoxy vendor gives that says what to do at various temperatures.

    Tony, the support guy said he'd give it to me. He never did.

    Now, looking at buying a new *45* gallon drum (they don't even give you 55 gallons!), they are charging over $6000!!!

    I would steer clear of these guys.

    I'm going to try to find a new supplier for my infusion resin. Maybe Gurit if they can get some to me somehow. Maybe System Three. $6000 for a 55 gallon drum of resin and hardener that isn't even topped off is insane.

    Where do you get your infusion resin?
     
  2. FMS
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    FMS Senior Member

    Have you been using MAS resin to date and do you have concerns about what you've already built using the MAS resin to date?
     
  3. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    I have been using it to date, but will no longer. I have no concerns with what I have already built because I got lucky. The temperatures fluctuated in the right direction at the right time and I was barely able (after 48 hours) to get my hull to kick. It sure was close - and MAS was of no help at all.

    See, they have a 3 part system:

    1) Resin
    2) Hardener
    3) Accelerator

    You mix the resin and hardener to one, fixed ratio, Within the fixed amount of hardener, you can vary the amount of accelerator from between 10% and 30% depending on the speed you want it to kick (at 77F).

    Nowhere, do they help you figure out how much accelerator to put in the stuff at any temperature other than 77F. There is no documentation, other than what you find on the Infucure part of the website. No information. The epoxy comes with no paperwork. "here are your drums, good luck"

    It's all 100% guesswork with no support from the company. I can do guesswork without paying $6000+ to do it. ;)

    I'm a little bit disgruntled right now, so please forgive the tone of the posts.

    I get to find/source a new infusion epoxy supplier now. Not a picnic.
     
  4. DCockey
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    DCockey Senior Member

  5. Herman
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: The Netherlands

    Herman Senior Member

    Do they sell Momentive epoxy resins over there? If so, try Epikote 04908, or RIM135 or 235
     
  6. Paul Anthony
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Orlando

    Paul Anthony Junior Member

    Why are you using the big name brands? Call Joel at E-Boat 772-770-1225. They have a no blush epoxy thats about 2,400 dollars for 45 gallons at their full retail price. If ordering that much, I'm sure they'll offer a discount.
     
  7. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    I know Joel very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any infusion epoxy in his inventory. What is,the cps, cure time at room temp and Tg on his stuff?

    Thank you for the responses. I will look into the suggestions. Any more suggestions for infusion epoxy?
     
  8. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Herman, we do have these resins here! Which product numbers will be best to use for infusion of an entire hull, using 9.5 mm inside diameter tubing, 9.5mm inside diameter spiral wrap, corecell and glass fiber, airtech green flow media, airtech darhar release film as bag, 4mmx10cm enka flow channels, as pictured below?

    I am accustomed to 600 cps at room temperate and 240 mins of free flow time.

    Does this epoxy also cover ranges of temperature from 5 c to 35 c?
     

    Attached Files:

  9. AndrewK
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    AndrewK Senior Member

    CatBuilder; RIM235 is a good resin, data sheet attached.
    But you are expecting too much 5 - 35'C, better to heat the workshop so that it is >20'C for the infusion.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Andrew, thanks. I'm not expecting that whole range to behave the same. At 5c, the epoxy doesn't really cure. That is at night. The next day it is 23c and goes off nicely. It acts like a prepreg at the lower temps. I don't expect full cure at those temps.

    At the high temps, I do expext to slow the cure down enough to infuse.

    Heat is not needed where i am. Only air conditioning, which I have as spot cooling.
     
  11. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Hi Catbuilder, I see your building again. Congrats. Try to keep temperature steady or at least start early in morning so it warms up as the day go, yet has to time to get going before evening chill.
     
  12. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    That's pretty much what I do and keep trying to explain to people. The temperature is cold sometimes, but it just pauses the epoxy briefly and turns it into a prepreg type thing for a few hours, then the cure starts again the next day. I'm not sure "building again" is the right term though. I've been building for a year straight now. No breaks, except a little break to go enjoy some cool air in July of '11. Otherwise, constant work without any days off.
     
  13. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The ratio of hardener should not change regardless of temperature. They are giving you the correct information.
     
  14. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Weren't you the guy that start building a cat, something happen and had to redo part of the hull.
     

  15. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Gonzo, I know you usually know what you are talking about. You misread my post. You vary the accelerator, not the hardener. They are giving me absolutely no information about varying that accelerator with temperature.
     
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