Marine Biodiesel fuels

nice,
the focus point of the discussion migrated to cost/production & efficiency, well... Something that was not taken in account: the price rising of petroleum fuels has nothing to do with demand/offer parity,not even import-parities, nor shortage in production, has much more in common with geopolitics, who will we fight to and why, what profit level will we obtain for invading XXX or YYYY, (countries I mean, whoever they can be), but at our citizen-level, we can do nothing to reduce cost, well, may I ask, what will happen when all of you begin fighting at the McDonald's door to acquire a couple gallons used Mc fried oil? wouldn't the multinational (cause it's a multinational or not? something alike the fuel multi yeah?) begin charging you for their wasted oil? would it still be cheaper than petroleum produced gasoline or diesel?
Just imagine the CNN news about the shortage of used oil in America, & how it's future value affects NYSE?

 

Nobody "makes" the fuel, but uses different available substances. If you could get petroleum for free then it would be a better comparison. Many people have small operation where they take a few hundred gallons of oil a month from a well in their field. Representing used cooking oil as a solution is inrealistic. It is available and free at the moment because there is no market. The same way as used motor oil or vaseline used to thrown away.

 

That is exactly what I tried to explain on my last post: "It is available and free at the moment because there is no market"
(sorry, english is not my native language)
As far as I don't also own a petroleum well on my backyard it does not mean I'm screwed (think I am... ) spent some nights dreaming on changing my name to Abdul, but still no results, nobody on the gulf wants to adopt me... the closer I've been is working here for a Petroleum Company, where commonly have to deal with statistics on petroleum & alternate fuels, reserves quantification & all the stuff... belive me, (as I stated on first posts, I"M NOT AGAINST BIODIESEL), just trying to clarify my point of view (can be wrong) Still think the same, it's a great posibility, if seriously studied, but not so wonderful as others stated, others that for some reason are trying to sell you the home production of biofuels as the great salvation idea, the most revolutionary & innovative thing since Noah sailed on his ark...

 

Genius

Genius: 10% thought, 90 % work......Bejamin Franklin
There are few that are willing to do the work to make biodiesel, and the supply of used cooking oil will end when people stop cooking. First of all, not that many people have diesel cars. Secondly, those that have diesel boats appear happy to leave them at the dock. As with anything else, there is work and an amount of dedication involved in making biodiesel. Sounds as if there are few who have the get-up-and-go attitude required; therefore, it isn't rational to believe that there will be a big run on used cooking oil at MacDonalds or anywhere else. Too, large producers of vegetable oil as well as corporate farms are coming on line rapidly to supply larger refineries. The world of used vegetable oil is, and will be in the foreseeable future, left to the little guys who want to make inexpensive fuel. True, there may be some greenies in the crowd who want cleaner burining fuel for enviromental and health causes, but that's OK too. Small personal refineries are will continue to be healthy,wealthy and wise to those who want energy independence.

 

Your point:
".../ it isn't rational to believe that there will be a big run on used cooking oil at MacDonalds or anywhere else.../"
would be interesting to check the cost-parity on a couple years from now...
As far as I know, any investment (in this case a home made micro refinnery) is always made on a serious study base, checking all numbers, material availability now & on a near future, projection of it's possible variations due to demmand increase, equipment needed & substitution/repair cost, energy consumption & it's possible cost variation curve projected on medium term, actual & future government charges (depending on country/state, up to now still nonexistent) and so on... for not mentioning a profit percentage (not in this case, where the final product is intended for internal non profit use). Commonly, the ponderate equation af all this "soup of numbers" must end on a possitive number.
May I suggest you are taking the easy road, just making numbers exclusively on the actual basis? what would be the figure a couple years from now with a possible (I say possible, not probable) shortage on oil stock? a sensible increase on energy cost? (due possibly on the continuation of the actual petroleum cost continuous rising) not to mention a possible substitution of the installed engine base for another kind of fuel much more "environmental friendly" or cheaper? (may check the NGV site: http://www.ngv.com/ or some Hydrogen providers sites http://www.ca.sandia.gov/crf/research/combustionEngines/PFI.php (the Wankel rotatory engine cycle fits perfectly for this kind of fuel), or even some still not documented studies about liquid fuel from wood plantations in process by some Petroleum Companies here in the south...), also to mention methanol whose production figures have been increasing on the past years by incredible factors...

 

World of possibilities

You are correct in your statements, and there are a world of possible aternatives. However, Production of biodiesel and the use of it are here and now. It's hard to say what the future holds. It is also true that the process and formulas for production of biodiesel have to be followed carefully, both for safety and to obtain the best possible product. It's still a way for the people who don't want to pay high fuel prices to manufacture their own fuel at a small fraction of the cost of pump prices. Looking at it in another way, raw crude has a finite quantity in nature, biofuels are renewable, and to that end the effort is worthwhile. In both using and refining the biodiesel end prodct, we have found few problems. All except the heater are in-house made from stainless steel picked up for pennies on the dollar from a fabrication plant. The total cost of the refinery was around $950 plus our work and the help of a welder. So far we calculate that we have saved approoxoimately $2,794 on fuel costs for the boat and more for the car. This means thatover an 8 month period, the refinery has paid for itself 2.94 times with 4 months to go for the year. Quality in, quality out.

 

First the correct quote is :"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" Thomas Edision.
Your numbers don't reflect the real costs, even if the oil is free for now. For example, permits to operate a chemical plant, maintenace, cleanup and disposal of waste, and most important: LABOR. Human energy and time has a monetary value that has to be taken into account.

 

Correct on quote

With anything you will expend energy including putting on your pants in the morning. Some things you just don't apply a dollar figure to. If you did, no one could afford to live. If I spend time sailing, does that mean I have to charge myself captains wages? If I spend time on doing something that will reward me, that's a plus in my favor. Work is work and play is play and making biodiesel is somewhere in between.

 

Ps

PS. Operating your own biodiesel refinery is not considered running a "chemical plant" and there are no restrictions, either local, state or federal. It depends on your point of view, we can also call an egg a chicken, but it's still an egg until it hatches. There are no known permits needed at any level unless you plan to sell the fuel. Nothing said about "bartering" though. Where there's a will, there's always a way. The bit about restriction was already tossed up and out on the thread earlier.

 

come on, give us a break... as you run into limits of absurd, also we can... what about a homemade refining process that insumes you most of your daylight labour hours? are you gonna change your life to a night surveillance job because all day is needed for your refinery? how are you goin to make a living?
Of course, if vegetables are rising it's cost, also can you plant tomatoes in your front garden? even when Goodyear rises the tire costs, will all of us home made our own automobile tires?

Still... (may I continue with absurd) untill every citizen in your country have a home refinery on his backyard, that will be the moment for regulations (and taxes of course) don't you think?

 

Very true Gonzo,
nonetheless, monetary costs do not reflect the real 'complete' costs either. When one accounts for the earths carrying capacity, and the size of our ecological footprint, and incorporates this sort of accountancy into the bigger social picture and then economic costs, then what can at first appear as a monetary increase in costs, can ecologically and or socially mean the opposite.
The 'green economics' efforts at 'triple bottom line' accountancy follows this rational,

In these modern times (excuse the cliche') what I think is vital is that people (or consumers) begin to become aware of everything that results from their choices, to purchase, to use, to dispose of, etc..
Within a certain line of analysis (Ken Konca et al.), this has been advanced to try to percieve of every act of consumption through the entirety of its 'chain of material provisioning'. This is coupled with the understanding that every production consumes something, and every consumption produces something, at every step along this chain, from extraction of primary resources, through transportation, to refinery, to manufacturing, to packaging, to sale, to use, and to final disposal.
Through this lense, one may begin to look at something like a simple chinese made plastic two dollar shop toy in a totally different way (considering what is consumed and produced along every step along the chain). One may argue that some such things real or total (triple bottom line) cost, begins to far outway their meager monetary cost.
Though this point probably needs no more hammering, one may compare economically cheap white printing paper that has come from a third world country, paying workers minimum wages under dangerous and right-less conditions, made from clear-felled old growth forest, pulped and produced in the cheapest most energy ineficient and most polluting ways (due to a lack of environmentally protetective laws) and transported a huge distance, by logging trucks, by train, by cargo ship, by trucks again, etc, until it finnally reaches the shop that you buy it from:
to
a economically more expensive white printing paper that has been locally produced from plantation (and or recylced) timber, that pays workers a decent living wage, that is pulped and produced in the most energy efficient and least polluting way, and is transported a minimum of distance to reach the shop where you buy it from.

Clearly the first one is economically cheaper. But look at what it consumes, and produces, at every single step along this chain,
then compare this to the second more economically expensive one.

Our problem is that the majority of people do not seem to accept that their choice of purchasing or using something allows, validates and links them to every cause, consequence and repercussion that results from its production, usage and downstream disposal.
This is a hard thing to accept, and a rather depressing thing to think about every time one makes any economic transaction, especially considering that there is most often very little real alternative choice out there.

So, considering the darker side of the fossil fuel industry- painfully in the worlds face (especially Iraq's, but also the 'coalition of the willings') a real alternative to fossil fuels has so much more to be accounted that a simple monetary balance sheet.
That Biodiesel is renuable, made from a recycled product, with cleaner emissions, is produced locally and does not require our governments to rationalise murder, opression and murky geopolitical realpolitiks- all seem like pretty good reasons to consider its use. And if the time comes to consider that a increase in the cost or human labour time above that of the commercially available diesel, may not so easily tip the balance sheet into the red.

P.S. (and sorry if this example is in poor taste- but to Australians and especially Sydneysiders- not that I am one- and Sydney harbour fisherman and seafood eaters- this is particularly revelvant topic at the moment)

How much did it cost to buy a 44 gallon drum of agent orange?

(Did this at all reflect the terrible personal, environmental, social, and economic costs that were to be accrued to the civilians of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, to the soldiers who sprayed it, or to places such as Homebush Bay in Sydney harbour where Union Carbide Produced it?)

Maybe a bad example, but essentially, the price tag certainly aint everything.


Hans.

 

Absurd it is

Not to worry about absurd, but theres's enough doing the refining that know the importance of the product. Check out the density on Biodiesel.com map.

 

Solrac read

Read hansp77 disertation.

 

maybe you can convince your President to change the way he's acting, invest in national USA industries instead of stealing other countries goods for being cheaper to produce than in USA...
excuse me, but the line of thinking of the last posts seems to me a little "fundamentalist"...

 

Well Solrac,
I am not sure I know how I might label this line of thinking..
From your post, I haven't yet quite managed to identify one.
There might be a few conlcusions I could jump to,
but that is never nice, nor usually sound,

You might want to expand a little,
do you mean to imply that the only person who can change the pattern of american investment/consumerism/acceptance of foreign exploitation is old (or I should say young) George Bush. Are we all, or Americans all, that powerless?
Also, he is certainly not my president,
I have not decoded your location, but as to mine, I am from
Australia,
Also, 'fundamentalist' is a pretty loaded term, and after accusing either myself and or Greenseas of this, it would be polite to explain yourself a little more.
Heres your definition: Fundamentalist;
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
Please explain how this shoe fits?
Hans.