Looking for something different

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by SailorAlan, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member

    Long time sailor and live aboard trying to figure out the next boat.

    40' max, 39' would be better.

    Low, long, split rig. Possibly with a retractable bowsprit, preferably free standing masts.
    Junk/cat ketch or schooner/ staysail schooner/ ketch or soft wing.

    Shoal draft with center/bilge board(s) or bilge keels, twin rudders.

    Mostly flush deck, well cambered, with 6' max headroom, we're short.

    Well protected helm, like I want to stay dry, I'm getting old.

    I really want to do it in laptrake ply, epoxy and cloth.

    I'm envisioning sort of a wave piercing bow, with a deep forefoot, transitioning to sort of a longship midship profile, then carrying most of the maximum beam to the transom, with a low wide subtle tunnel like on an E Scow, beginning around 3/4 aft of the bow and expanding slowly as it progresses aft.

    If any of that makes sense.
    I'm on a ketch bound for the South Pacific and working fro a tablet and a cellphone so developing and sharing gráfica is a challenge.

    Any input would be appreciated.
     
  2. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Why a wave piercing bow? I thought they were wetter and also lead to problems when anchoring or anchored?
    Yes, they are used in high performance multis, but the concept doesn't necessarily translate, and some who tried them on monos gave up because of the effects on handling.
     
  3. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member

    The biggest attractions for me are the reduction of pitching and shock loads from hitting waves at speed.

    The boat I'm on now is 60' overall and 47' waterline and 34 tons. The bow is 7.5' high. In big stuff she slows down a lot when she takes the seas on the head and loses a bunch of power out of the rig. Then she recovers and we charge on. Its uncomfortable and hard on the boat AND a very wet ride.
     
  4. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    That much freeboard sounds unusual; maybe the boat has overly bluff bows and could be improved by just going for finer sections up forward?
     
  5. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    You're probably looking for a pinched bow. It cleaves the chop like an axe. You're probably also looking for a long LWL, in proportion to your boat Length, say 33 ft or more. Neither of these two characteristics are all that radical, but both tend to deprive the bow of excess buoyancy.

    As for your hollow sections aft, I don't know what you're after. Perhaps you're looking greater form stability. I'm not sure such is worth the trouble, as it will almost certainly add Hull whetted surface area.

    As you say you are getting up there in age, I would think you would be looking for a more easily driven Hull, which can get by with less SA, rather than one which can sport a large rig. This type of boat would have more "V" like sections though out its Length, and might be initially a bit tender. I'd go with bilge keels to get reasonable draft, without resorting to expensive and complicated drop keels and ballasted Centerboards, which often intrude on the living area.

    You mentioned "sprit sails", but I'm not sure which type you mean. Did you mean the more rectangular type, which has a sprit to hold the peak corner up? Or do you mean the triangular type, which has a sprit to hold the clew out, in place of a Boom? Neither type is all that easy to reef, though the triangular one probably can be made to work with roller-furling. The rectangular ones could be set up to braille up very quickly, by having a standing sprit, with a jack-line on top (between the masthead and the sprit top), onto which the sail is attached with hanks, so it can furled against the mast, like a opening curtain. You would need three of them which are roughly the same size, so you could have all three up, two of them up, or just one of them up, without the helm balance being too much affected.

    A more conventional option would be to go with two or three roller-reefing Bermuda sails, which can have light air sails set between them. This way no one has to go out to the pitching bow, just when things are starting to get exciting. You did say you were getting up in years.

    Chinese lugs would work well in this same situation. They are easier to repair, but are much heavier and not quite as efficient.

    you can always put the bowsprit out for show.
     
  6. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member

    Her specs: Loa 60'1"
    Lod 56"
    Lwl 48 (loaded)
    Beam 16'
    Draft 7.5
    She has a long kind of deeply curved sheer, with long overhangs, a deep full keel with lots of drag and the rudder on the end of it. We've had her up to 11.5 knots under only working sail. Second Summit is a 1974 challenger 50 Ketch stretched 6' at the stern by the designer Howard Stern. It was his personal yacht at the time of his death and for most of its life. I'm the captain, not the owner. I've sailed aboard as volunteer crew several times over the decade I've known her, and much of the work in her is mine. I love her, but I can't imagine being able to feed her long term. She's a powerful, comfortable, complex blue water boat with a thirsty electrical system.

    I've sailed monohulls almost exclusively, from a mini fish up to a 130' schooner. I've delivered a few more modern designs as crew. And I've shipwrecked, through my own bullheadedness.

    Yes a fine entry with a stem shaped like the edge of a maul maybe, with maximum length at the water line, and a foredeck that really sheds water. And doesn't smash into waves like 15 tons of steel on a surfing rampage (our last boat). I want to go to windward well and not on my ear, but I don't really care if the boat is slow to turn if it tracks straight without a whole lot of correction. I want to keep the boat as skinny as possible without giving up too much form stability, maybe 10' max beam, maybe less. I imagine building a hull out to 39'10" and then putting a simple 30-35' interior in it. Leaning strongly towards less is more inside. (Seriously my wife and kids and I could carry everything we own without real effort and have kept it that way for 2 year)
    I want the length for speed, stability, and a more kindly motion. I want to keep it under 40' because of increased costs for services. I want shoal draft for increased access and ease of some hull maintenance.

    I want a rig we can manage as we continue to age gracelessly. I'd happily take a pair of rigid wings if someone had a reasonably cruiseable design.

    And the overall sustainability of the boat itself, and the materials and methods used in its construction and ongoing maintenance is also really important to me.

    I've owned seven boats of various types from 29' through 67' over the last 18 years, I want this to be the last one. I'm working on a model by eye out of card stock (cause it's whats handy) in my spare time, and desperately wishing that someone had a android or iPhone app that would let me express the hull shape I have in mind.
     
  7. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member


    I'm really interested in the Chinese Lug and its evolutions. There's some really impressive efforts in soft wing sails being done on the Chinese lug DNA. Carbon and/or Kevlar could save some weight in the rig with the battens, and maybe the masts.

    The hollow section aft was specifically for increased form stability and perhaps a little help surfing as well. The longer the water line the better I think.

    I definitely do not want a ballasted centerboard. I've seen the structure around the bilge boards of a wooden e-scow, somewhat intimately, a long time ago. I feel like we could give up the space for them if the payoff was high enough in reduced draft and increased lift to windward.

    Maybe it's a pipe dream but I wonder if we could build a minimalist live aboard, cruising boat, out of composite plywood lapstrake, that could stay on its feet and plane without a deep high aspect keel and ballast bulb and be seaworthy.

    Can we build <40' boat that's fast and weatherly enough to run from storms and still easy to handle and maintain for a couple?
     
  8. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    More on this later.
     
  9. Earl Boebert
    Joined: Dec 2005
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    Earl Boebert Senior Member

    Oh, man, that green is hard on the eyes :-(

    Cheers,

    Earl
     
  10. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I really screwed up in my last post.

    I pushed the wrong button on my calculator and ended up with a ridiculously low estimate on the depth of the ballast slug. The real answer is probably closer to 8 inches to 1 foot if made out of lead. This will depend on the thickness of the keel. I'm thinking somewhere between 8 inches to 1 foot. Six inches seems a bit flimsy for this much weight. Over a foot seems too bulky, adding buoyancy where it's not wanted. The foil shape of this keel would have an airfoil like leading an trailing edge, with a box section in between. This would simplify its construction while eliminating a lot of frontal and trailing drag.

    As for the Hull plan view, a very long, sharp bow is tempting, but it would rob form stability and maybe even directional stability. So I think the bow could be carried about 40% of the Length aft, which would be around 16 ft. After that the max Beam can be carried all the way to the transom. This is to provide as much form stability on a small Beam as possible.

    The twin rudders would facilitate this.
     
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  11. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member

    I think we're on the same page. I know I want twin rudders and a robust linkage, probably tiller, potencially transom hung. My wife really wants an aft cabin with a gallery of transom windows. (I'll make that gallery out of bronze or composit depending on availabe budget.
     
  12. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Hi Alan,

    Maybe you can get some ideas from Tad Roberts' bluewater Future Cruiser series: - 28' - - 38' - - 44' mk II -

    Some comments already from Boat Bits ---> April 03, 2012 Some short list musing = Quote source ---> Februari 27, 2012 A quick chat with Tad Roberts

    ‘‘ . . . . What changes would I make? Well for one, I'd look seriously at bringing out the coachroof to the hull sides as I've always wanted a flush deck boat (White Squall, the one-off CAL 40 is, and has always been, in my top five favorite boats) and the added strength would be no bad thing. I like the rig as drawn but I can't help thinking that a high aspect balanced lug schooner with jib would seriously rock the house and surprise a whole lot of folks on a performance level... That said, just as it is, it is some seriously awesome boat! . . . . ’’
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  13. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member

    I've always liked Tad Roberts' work. I'm not really a fan of strip planking though.

    One of the reasons I'm firm on plywood is that I have a great low cost source that will do custom runs about 10 miles from where I plan to build. I've also done repairs on lapstrake plywood chriscrafts so I'm pretty comfortable with the methods and materials. I'm also considering steel as I'm equally comfortable working with it.

    I guess I'm also really committed to lapstrake construction.
     
  14. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I don't think the aft cabin and twin rudders would be good ship mates.

    If the rudders are mounted on the transom, they will need long shafts to reach the top of the aft cabin. there, along its roof, the quadrants can be located.

    the trouble with twin rudders is their rather extreme vulnerability. they tend to of the unprotected blade type. In an unfortunate collision with either sea junk or a large marine animal, both can be easily taken out. Once this happens, arranging a jury steering system around the aft cabin can be a bit challenging.

    I recently saw a Youtube video of a yacht which was abandoned after it lost its rudder. It proved impossible to arrange a jury steering system. This has given me pause.

    with an aft cabin, it may be better to go with an attached rudder, which will be hung from the aft end of the long keel. This way the rudder shaft could end up in the aft end of the center cockpit, or at least near it.
     
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  15. SailorAlan
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    Location: Panama City, Panama

    SailorAlan Junior Member

    Late late year a family on a 50' hanse lost their rudder in 30 knots and 18' seas. They couldn't get the boat to do anything but lie ahull.
    We've lost steering twice in the last 5 years. It is awful. The ketch rig, good luck and serious knowhow have saved us both times. And we were in fair conditions with ample time to fix it both times. I will never run hydraulic steering on my own boat.

    I was thinking that kickup rudders would be the way to go, or a sturdy skeg. I don't know that I want to save any weight on the steering system. I also think an ondeck steering linkage would be a must. I like rods and heim joints for durability and serviceability.

    I personally have a number of issues with the aft cabin. For one, I'd rather have a long wide shallow lazzarette and a clear deck. Its an ongoing conversation.
     
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