Lamination process

Going and working in Primitive situations will make you or break you very quickly !!
I thought i knew it all and was cocky and so sure of myself , had been in the game for a number of years and do all kinds a seemingly impossible things , One month in a place like this i was ready to head on out till i realized these guys were teaching me ,not the other way round .
Seeing moulds waxed with silicone Car wax and just one coat and the product released just like it had 6 coats of a good mould release. I shuddered when i saw it but now i am a believer in many differant things .Sure there were gelcoating problems with fish eyeing but with a little patients and very carefully fine spraying the gel coat it covered so eazy , these guys had done it many times before , also the spray of two completely differant colors one after the other wet on wet . I had my own system but watching these guys made me humble .
No one could speak a word of English so most people would have lost the plot right there and then! I couldnt speak a word of Tahitian or french so we were on a even footing .
Just think how you would feel if you were deaf trying to work ! once i realized this all went sweet and easy .
Look and learn and be completely intouch with your surroundings and enviroment .
Finally the runny resin we used squeeges instead of a mohair roller and by mixing the two catalyst that they had availible at about a 60/40 ratio we had a quicker gel time with a slower cure and little to no shrinkage ever took place.
My point is learn to use what you have anyway you can ,see a problem and understand what has caused it ,then work round it anyway you can.
The Tahitian laminators were the best laminators i have ever worked with .
They live by the simple philosophy of having great pride in there work and workmanship and what they were making .
This attatude has stuck with me right to this very day.
Some places dont even have electricity !! so as for a vacuum pump ! whats that ??
Infusion is total lazyness and has very little skill attached to it . Been there done that !, put it down and moved on , Sure has its place in the industry but not for me theres to much to chance and its not the be all to end all .

 

About the boat in the avatar, there should be no problem to do this in polyester gelcoat, iso-npg if you are aiming for highest quality, semi-iso or iso if price is very important.
VE gelcoats are not for exterior use, unless yellowing is nu issue. (chemical resistance is high, so in many non-boating industries it is used, pipework, tanks, etc)

As for laminating:
Best quality is achieved using vinylester.
Very good quality: 1st layer vinylester, rest other resin
but even good quality can be reached by using normal ortho resin, although I would quickly recommend DCPD, for its water resistance, and even price. ISO is also an option.

with one person a 1 go operation is hard to achieve. Quite likely the person will apply gelcoat twice, using 4-5 small batches per layer. Make sure your gelcoat achieves a good cure, or yuo will encounter alligatoring. (make sure temperature is right, and if that is a bit low, go high on the catalyst range.) Quality critical applications use special catalyst for gelcoats (good cure, low on porosity)

After the gelcoat, basicly you can do a 1 go operation, but it is a bit funny to call it that. The resin has long been cured where you started, once you have done the complete surface of the first layer... So you can immideately start a new layer again. Thise subsequent layers can be done in one go, usually (thickness will likely not exceed 4-5mm in total). Do a test piece to see if this works for your materials.
This will make you go slow from front to end, applying all layers at once, debulking between all of them, but I guess this was referred to as a one-go operation.

It is however important to do the first layer seperately, to prevent print issues.

Also make sure you have a 100% bubble free first laminate. The occasional air bubble can be opened and filled with resin before you do the rest of the laminate.

 

@tunnels:


When being hired as an expert, which costs a lot of money, they also expect a high end product, usually. I always make clear before even going there that the right materials should be available. This indeed can be one of the many challenges. Some people that you are able to communicate with, is also nice.

I must admit that most of my work is local, but the rest of europe is not bad at all. Also being Dutch makes me more multilingual then perhaps any other country (who can choose from 8 languages in school, I only did 6, by the way...)

 

Just use a good quality gel coat sprayed at the correct thickness and use the correct Catalyst . Allow to harden over night !
The first layer of class needs to be P matt 450csm . Allow this also to harden over night if possible Then you can carry on with laying up the rest of the layers , Do you have a laminate sorted for the whole boat ? In a one man band situation you start with a area the size you think you can handle and then as you gain confidance move on to a slightly bigger area each time . Mornings are cooler so you should be able to do bigger areas . As the day warms up you could have to reduce the size or lower the catalyst to give you a longer gel time . Remember there is a mininum amount of catalyst that will be recomended for the resin you will use so dont go below it !!
Just a small point to remember when laying the glass inside a hull in the mould if have to join layers start from the bow and work towards the aft end ,also from the keel towards the chine and up to the gunwhale .
Think about this and see if you can tell me why the overlaps are done this way ??

 

It is always a good idea to laminate over the last layer while it is still tacky to promote good bonding between layers. So a 1 hour in between is a good advice. If you laminate continously, heat will build up and might cause the laminate to crack.

If say, 4 hours has passed, or if the last layer has cured, you need to sand the last layer with an 80 to 100 grit sandpaper. Two things. First you need to scour the surface to promote good adhesion. Second, you are removing the glass pricks sticking out which would cause voids or bubbles on the second layer.

In all gel coat instructions, it has always been advised to start lamination as soon as the gel coat is tacky, never when it has cured. Also it is discouraged to have two coats of gel coat. It is always best practice to adjust the gun to get the correct thickness of gel coat in one pass and always to use a gel coat wet film thickness gauge.

Rx

 

If you try to lay over the gelcoat to soon you run the risk of aligators and resin etch through You are ale to leave gel safely for 24 hour and never have problems . Over night is best because there is no one around to put there fingers on it . The first layer should also be quite resin rich but not to the point of resin running every where and well rolled out , use a torch to look into the layer to check for bubbles all over not just corners and edges !!.
There should never be any need to sand any of the layers even if its left overnight to the next day . I always use a medium length mohair roller over the surface , just lightly !!, this breaks up the bundles of fibres and wets out the dri-ish patchs and mops up the slightly over wet patchs so all in all the surface should be perfect and never any reason to sand what so ever to touch it with sand paper .Two layers of glass at a time for a one man band with a 25 to 30 minute gel time is good and you can and will be able to get a lot done in that time . Two layers will warm slightly when it has gelled , after the gel time , a short while later that the resin will feel warm to the touch ,wait till this process has passed and the laminate feels cool again before you attempt to do another lay up always catalyse at the same rate each time ! If the layers before are still exotherming and you start the next layer over the top you will get caught with less time to roll out ,so wait till its cold !!! if there are more that one person i alway alicate one person to catalyse all and any of the mixes during the whole job .
Think before you charge off and do something you could end up regretting !!! If you have others to help you always check there work as well as your own before you walk away to wash you gear , set your standards high !!
Three seconds of time to roll a bubble or 20 minutes grinding and reglassing that patch just for sake of one bubble . It all comes down to care and attention to detail !! and knowing and understanding the products you are working with !!

Keep hearing about cure and gel times ! Alway remember they are not the same !!! GEL is when the resin gels and starts to go hard !! Cure is when the process goes into the exotherm stage a short time later of after the gel . exotherm is when the chemical reaction warms the layer and leads on into a inital cure , the cure can carry on for a long while later ,like even into a couple of days depending on the tempratures and conditions etc etc . Building in winter when its colder this slows and takes longer so post cureing can be a option to look at . Good luck !!

 

He always is kidding!

Haven´t you noticed by now that our self proclaimed "expert" is nothing but a bigmouth?

Tunnels was never part of our industry, he has absolutely no clue.

All his contribution is (if it is valid) repeated comments of the experts around here.

Regards
Richard

 

And so you have come out of your hole again and set youself up as the absolute guru know it all ******* just like last time !.Never have i ever proclaimed to be a expert on any thread here or any where else . People that blow hot air usually are hanging on to the sirt tails of others and when push come to shove and its time to slip on the gloves and pick up a roller are off to play in the toilets till the work is done ! Did you wife slap your hand again ! WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM ????

 

Never I set myself up as a guru here Mr. amateur!

But you begin to show up as a expert, that is dangerous! Leave it, we have proven experts here, we don´t need you to copy their advice.

I have no wife, and I have no problem, except with self proclaimed "pro´s" like you!

Or how shall we understand your claim of having 25 years in the GRP industry under your belt?

You lie tunnels:!:

 

MUST BE FULL MOON ON YOUR SIDE OF THE PLANET !!
Carefull you dont get those little hairy parts caught on the fence when you jump off , probably hasnt got any anyway !!

If your such a bright beacon of Knowledge and expertise then why do you take what i write as being a such a threat or does it show up how useless you really are ? .
This is the last time i will stoop to you level of incompitance !, go find some other person to vent your frustrations on !!


I totally agree there are some very knowledgable people on this site and lots of very interesting stuff is written about then there is you that tags along on there shirt tails spouting obsenties and abuse and really show what you really arnt made of , So get some one to hold up the edge of your rock so you can crawl under till next full moon !!

Quote )I have no wife ! ------------------------------------ what about a mother ?

 

I knew i had seen his picture on a toilet wall some where !

 

tunnels,

from what you have written it is obvious that you have done more than one boat in ya life mate, for a small boat builder building whose first boat,, as is the original poster, then your advice is very much to the point and a lot more specific than what I jogged down, rather too quickly. Thanks.

 

Apex,

..what is it that you feel tunnels has said wrong here on this site, I see no problems at all with his comments.

 

Its one of the points i try to be clear on ! its the simple things that exsperianced people forget to mention but is very important .
Keep life simple and keep away from complicated clutter and bull crap ! WE all have life time exsperiances to share ! its really hard work to understand what another person is trying to discribe if you dont fully understand the subject in the first instance !!

For small boats i was the production manager of the laminating shop for Bonito Boats here in nz before they were taken over a while back ' We made a complete 16 foot cabin boat and a 18.6 foot cabinboat everyday and had a waiting list of 18 months for both boats at that time . I left there to go overseas , when i came back i was factory manager for markline and the factory turned out a 36 foot cabin cruising boat with full glass interior and a complete glass fly bridge , plus all the other small moudings every 4 and half days . Production work is easy its the quality control thats the hard bit also training staff to not only make a good job all the time but to be consistantly
good , Its attaudes and work habits you have to change and that the hard bit , I always worked on the floor alongside the guys doing what they were doing one or two full days a week !. Its a way of knowing where the short falls are and being able to do something about it .
Have been fortunate to be able to have a foot in both camps , management and on the factory floor and be able to see potentuall problems and weaknesses and have the clout to be able to change the proceedures for the better, not only the product but for the staff as well . Remember working staff are the most valuable asset in any company any where . A company relys on there workers workmanship to produce a good product for the company to sell completely with confidance . No news travels faster than bad news !!

 

"tacky" means when you touch the gelcoat, there is some stickeness but the color does not transfer to your fingertip.