Kite driven WIG.... Possible?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Saqa, May 26, 2021.

  1. Saqa
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: Hervey Bay

    Saqa Senior Member

    Hi all. Pretty much just a hypothetical question. Although depending on feasibility might be an interesting side project

    I am thinking along the lines of a light tri with sail type wings deployed from the crossbeams. propelled by a kitey type ting plus a single air propeller either electric or petrol. Around 4 to 6 metres long and wide. Foam or hexcfell with carbon skins

    I wonder if something like this can quickly and cheaply cross from Hervey Bay shores to the Rooneys area along Fraser Island and back. I dont know if the wind conditions in the bay are ideal for this project to mix it up with prop and kite

    Capacity for two fishing outfits, fuel, water, some edibles, GPS/Sounder combo, 170kg made up of 2.1 persons

    Love to hear your thots
     
  2. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Aren't there powered hang-glider like affairs with floats, like a poor man's sea-plane ? What is the objective here, that can't be accomplished with a boat ?
     
  3. Saqa
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    Location: Hervey Bay

    Saqa Senior Member

    Mr E! Long time!....

    Objective, cross over and catch a coral trout or two for dinner and back within a few hours. Its a long way by a regular boat. I hadn't thought of a powered hang glider. Wonder how that would go with a kite?

    Maybe a crossover between an altitude limited powered glider and an ultra light canoe might be feasible? Pondering the feasibility of something different for the sake of being different

    "added pondering from your thoughts, wonder if a powered hang glider wing can also be rotated in plane to act as sail to create a glider/cat crossover....not kite driven"
     
  4. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I remember now, you had a HDPE boat ? There was a company up Cairns way that had an ambitious WIG project a few years ago, but I don't think it survived a mishap where the thing hit waves hard, causing grief.
     
  5. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Indeed, current projects are a 3.5m HDPE sport fisher and a 6m HDPE hulls cat. Both boat hulls are now on trailer and the 3.5m being fitout

    For the purpose of this thread though I have started leaning towards a powered hang glider with max 3m altitude ability and a fishable hull platform..... does that make this a WIG?
     
  6. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    3m is pretty low to the water, are there any "microlight" sea planes, running at little more than wave height would likely be an advantage for lift, but you don't want to hit the water at speed, or have problems taking off or landing in choppy conditions.
     
  7. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    Ground effect vehicles are more effective than boats at speeds over 40 knots. I don't understand your construction proposal, but wind powered WIG makes no sense. WIG gets it's efficiency by completely avoiding water contact. Without water contact there is no momentum difference to generate power.
     
  8. Tiny Turnip
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    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    There's a few of these about:
     
  9. Robert Biegler
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    Robert Biegler Junior Member

    Someone proposed that something like a glider with extreme dihedral could get righting moment from a wing in ground effect to lee, drive from the other, near vertical wing, and lateral resistance from a daggerboard. Here is the same idea with a few more bits added on:
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/d5/33/5ad533e5544262c84f1f27c92fb47b13.jpg
    I am not aware of this ever having become more than vapourware.

    In principle, all you need for sailing is a velocity gradient. It is not strictly necessary that the gradient involves two media. That is how dynamic soaring in albatross and RC gliders works. But their efficiency is hard to match, and I don't know whether it scales up. I may be rather difficult to extract enough power to fly from wind shear near the surface, which provides a smaller gradient than the difference between water and air. If the water is there, why not use it? It is possible to fly suspended between a paravane and kite:

    But if that can be scaled up, it would still work only in a restricted range of wind speeds. Unless winds are reliably in that range, this would not make a practical vehicle.

    If a powered craft is desired, this looks to have greater ground clearance than most wing in ground effect craft:

    There is more information here, but behind a paywall: https://www.inderscienceonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1504/IJAD.2010.031698

    Unless Saqa really wants to experiment, or avoid needing a pilot's license, the suggestion by Mr Efficiency and Tiny Turnip is a lot more practical.
     
  10. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    A powered hang glider with an inflatable seems to be the cheapest, most lightweight and sanest option if you want to quickly go somewhere for fishing. You'll find plenty of examples. But afaik you don't need to fly them low in WIG.

    But going back to the more interesting thread title:

    A wing in ground effect vehicle powered by kite power? Possible?
    I've read something like that on a wikipedia page when looking into crosswind kite power generation but I can't find that anymore. I think the idea was to use e.g. a blimp and have the kites higher in the air with different wind speeds or different wind directions.
    I have a hard time imagining what is possible. But theoretically you could have an aircraft with multiple crosswind kites that produce power by pulling out winches, and that power you could then redirect into a propeller. But I suspect you do need a differential between two medium.

    Hydrofoiling seems much more sensible.

    Kite power for sailing and power generation on boats is super interesting but even that is experimental. Just found this project yesterday with a VTOL rigid wing kite that can hover and take off which could be perfect for boats: http://kitesforfuture.de youtube description

    I've recently looked into WIG boats for fun, but I don't think any WIG so far can really land or take off in rough water. WIG is supposed to be more power efficient so I was wondering if this could enable high speed solar powered flight.

    But ultralight gliders are even more efficient (glide ratio = lift drag coefficient of 40-60). There is some fascinating stuff going on for electric flight. These are two light (<600kg) electric sea planes I've found but I don't think any WIG so far can really land or take off in rough water. There are many other ICE powered ones that might be more suitable for short fishing trips. But none of this is easy or cheap.
    FlyWhale seaplane 650kg
    Equator P2 XCursion 530kg amphibian 200km range electric 15kWh 240 km/h

    This e-birdy is even only 120kg minimum take of weight but not amphibious. But maybe could be:
    Birdy 120 article1 2 115-280kg Glide ratio 40 63-180kmh 12-16kW faltprop (57 Wh/mi compared to 245 Wh/mi opener blackfly) 50-60.000€
     
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  11. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

  12. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Seriously, this isn't something to be treating as a lark, some significant safety issues involved, and any slow moving aircraft that is near to the ground/water is very much subject to sudden changes in windspeed/direction, no fun hitting the deck hard even from 3 metres. With it being bad enough traversing rough water in small boats at even modest speeds, landing on rough water at speed in a bathtub hung off a flying machine, I would prefer to leave to the likes of the Solo Lemon drink man.
     
  13. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Carry on Mr E, I am making a list of important aspects as I feel something along these lines would make for a perfect side project

    1 - Sea state interacting
    In my location there are kilometers of firm flat wide beaches and lots of protected little bays plus the inside shore of Fraser Island is usually very protected. A tricycle system with simple deployable wheels might work. I think I can fabricate a setup fairly easily and use plastic wheel chair wheels

    2 - Altitude safety
    This is important bit, the two humans most dear to me might sometimes accompany me if I decide to build something. I will have to focus on optimising COG parrachute types so that it natural orients properly and lands on a cushion of air on depowering forward thrust. Sorry I dont know a lot of the jargon. Lets raise the max desired to say about 4m in rough conditions. Not that I would head out in that but you never know localised condition changes

    "More ponderings... a glider based setup might help energy efficieny by swooping distances by just gliding forward. I am seriously starting to lean towards electric with solar panels and an onboard generator for the charge"
     
  14. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    I believe I didnt understand either :)
    On reflection with0ut a surface dipping into the water it can only travel downwind so kite is out for me for now in flight mode
     
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  15. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Tiny, I found them inspiring enough to take up that route now
     
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