Kayak vs. Thames Rowing Skiff - a personal experience

“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.”
― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

 

With respect I only used a very very broad brush approach when comparing the skiff to scull and I have built quite a number of true racing shells, singles and doubles. The point was as in rowing craft, canoes vary just as much if not more. Hence the specialist types, slalom, surf, K1 to K4, C1 +, touring, Canadian etc etc. So SailerDon needs to compare a craft similar in performance ie not out and out racing, but not a barge either, something that can work on the same water with ease.

But even Thames skiffs vary and can be quite narrow so the waterline width ie not like a dinghy. Indeed there are the camping versions and other variants.
Some of the Thames skiffs I have seen are no wider than this training scull on the w/l possibly narrower. Some are stripped out bar the essentials and used as trainers for rowers by rowing clubs. Certainly seen quite a few tip over even on the wake of passing motor cruisers, on the Thames, non tidal and tidal. Must have been the Champagne from the picnic hamper....

http://www.virusuk.demon.co.uk/turbo/

All good stuff 'messing about on the river' or occassionally swimming in it...
Fortunately not actually capsized a Thames skiff, always kept it right way up!.

Hope you find a suitable canoe/kayak to try SailorDon.

 

Fair enough, but the Mandarin isn't one of the racier skiffs. It's rather sedate and portly. Nice to potter around in though.

Just out of curiosity, I looked up the rules for the Skiff Racing Association. Those are pretty loose rules. You could do a lot within that framework.

 

Obviously, the best design for my benchmark is the Selway-Fisher Mandarin 17. That is the benchmark as I stated in my opening post for this topic.

The main thing I am trying to improve on is weight. At 130 pounds empty, it is necessary for me to trailer this boat. Roof racks like kayaks use are strong enough, but I can't load a 130 pound boat 5 or 6 feet above the ground.

My first thought was kayak. They are light and I can load 80 or 90 pounds onto a roof rack.

It turns out that kayaks don't benchmark very well against rowing skiff designs.
Perhaps I'm better off directing my search for a lighter rowing skiff (possibly the Heritage 18).

I'm trying to avoid double trailering (which is illegal in 22 states).

 

That weight target should be achievable SailorDon. The weight of a stitch and tape ply Eskimo would be around 30-32 lb, lighter if SOF. The weight of a single racing shell around 28 - 30 lb (riggers inc) all plus or minus a bit partly materials partly minor variation.

I would be surprised if you could not get something suitable under (likely well under) 70/80 lb and sufficiently robust/durable.

 

I would recommend building a skin-on-frame kayak, they typically weigh in at 20 to 26 lbs. keep it simple, should not cost more than about $150 in materials and can be built in a weekend with common hand tools (typically 30 to 50 hours total, including ripping the stringers). I have built them in as little as 20 hours, but I have done a number of them. They are so light you do not even need a roof rack, I just throw a pad on the roof and put a couple of ratchet straps around them though the doors/windows on the roof. You can be in the water in the kayak only about 5 min after you park your car, you can carry the whole boat with one hand, and your paddle in the other.

You build it to your size, so finding the correct size is easy. I would suggest for someone your size to go with about 17 ft length, perhaps 22-23 inch beam (max), and go with fairly full bow and stearn (no inflection points on the gunwale stringers, those make the sexy looking narrow bow and sterns but are pretty useless for volume and staying dry, the gunwales should make smooth even archs from bow to stern). Traditional measurements are: length, two and a half hand spans, beam; hips plus two fists (I personally find that a bit wide so I use hips plus one fist), depth behind cockpit is width of fist with the thumb extend (like a thumbs up signal), and in front of cock pit deep enough to slide your legs into, usual less than about 12". If you make an extra large coming to make it easy to get in and out than the depths can be altered to make it easy to get in and out.

Almost any fairly clear, straight grained wood can be used for the frame. I have used cedar, white oak, doug fir, hemlock and whatever else reasonable quality wood I can salvage or find cheap or free. A single clear 16' 2x8 typically gives you all the stringer stock you need.

built a west greenland type, they have fewer parts and come together quickly. Lash the frame with polyester artifical sinew, use nylon skin and polyurethane floor finish to seal it. there are instructions all over the web on building them. Just make sure you make the bottom fairly flat with tight buildge bends (I use a bending jig for the ribs). If you end up with a round bottom kayak it will be very difficult to balance and stay upright.

They come together so fast they are fun to build, it holds your attention becasue progress is so fast. once you have the frame you can wrap it with plastic sheet and packing tape to try it out. It is easy to change the frame and shape and still keep it fair.

Using a nice light and easy to paddle skin-on-frame kayak is one of the most pleasant paddling experiences ever. It is so light and nible everything else feels like a heavy box, and conventional hard shell kayaks will no longer hold your interest at all.

 

Obviously the kayak fans will say you need a kayak. There's nothing wrong with having a kayak either, if you like kayaks. However, a lighter rowing skiff would be another alternative.

To take a couple of obvious examples, the one I am currently building for myself is 19 feet long, has a beam of 46 inches to the outside of the planking (gunwales extra) and weighs just a little over 60 pounds straight off the strongback. I don't yet know exactly what the finished weight will be, but I will be very surprised if it is not under 65 pounds.

Then there's the Oxford Wherry, a 16 footer by Angus Rowboats, which weighs 53 pounds and could be built a bit lighter.

Or there's Dave Gentry's Ruth which IIRC comes in around 45 pounds.

Or you can do a custom build to your own specs, and still end up with a boat in the 50-60 pound range.

 

Sailor Don,
I would like to assure you that 4 mph is no problem for a kayaker with reasonable equipment, fitness and experience. Based on your rowing I presume you have the fitness. You clearly lack the experience, which is more important for a double paddle than it is for rowing. Rowing controls blade position and you just provide power from a few specific muscles. With a double paddle you must control everything and power can come from a variety of muscles. In fact, if exercise is your objective I think anyone knowledgeable would advise you go with a kayak instead of another row boat simply for the broader muscle activation.

About equipment, you should have no problem with any good kayak with at least 15 ft waterline length (16 or 17ft overall) and a maximum 24 inch waterline beam (22 inch more optimal). This beam limit will likely eliminate all low performance sit-on-top designs. Sitting high (above the waterline) cuts stability which must be replaced with waterline beam. Speaking of stability and beam, it seems from several of your replies that you suffer from 'fat girl syndrome'. I grasp that you are not small or light as humans go but you are repeatedly dismissing reasonable solutions with sad gross exaggerations of your own dimensions. Typical 17 ft solo kayaks carry 350 lb with ease and I don't believe for a second you would not fit in. My big concern would be having a long cockpit opening (you should be able to slip your leg in while fully seated) and having room for your feet (presuming they are large). Tight cockpits are important for control in waves, rolling and the like -things you don't care about. Most butts in most kayaks don't touch the sides. K1s have flat little seats on swivels. With the footpegs set right you will have no problem wedging your body in on the rare occasions you need the control. The other classic symptom of FGS is demanding wider beam boat for stability before they have the experience to know better. Most shops have some "high volume" 17s for rent and will happy to help you past your FGS and someday buy a moderate performance boat.

You also seem misguided on boat weight. 50 lb is a heavy solo kayak. 70lb indicates negligence. 40 something is common. Light weight is under 30. Under 20 is a racer. Beyond just light weight ease to the water, kayaks don't need nearly as much water -winding creeks with 4" depth min. So not only is it much easier to get on the water, there is vastly more water to get on to and hardly any weather can stop you! And honestly, zipping along shore is vastly more entertaining than slogging along in open water with nothing better to look at than your wake and the GPS.

BTW there are high performance sit on top kayaks, they are called 'surf skis' look at Epic brand.

 

Under 4" of water is accessible to a lot of rowboats too. Mine will float clear of the bottom in 3". What you need when rowing is width, so yes kayaks are better in narrow creeks or any other narrow spaces. However, in shallow water the easiest way to get around is by poling the boat. That works really well, if you have a boat stable enough to stand up in.

It comes down to circumstances and preference. Really I'd like to have both. I'm seriously contemplating building a kayak or double paddle canoe once the rowboat is sorted, but I wouldn't give up the rowboat.

 

a 20-25 lb skin on frame is no problem, even for a larger more stable one. and costs less to build too. but you can not really buy a really light kayak unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on it.

But a kayak is a very different kind of water craft than a rowing skiff. A row boat you can share, put cargo in and relax and stretch out in. a kayak you wear, and can only "relax" after you get out of it and stretch out on the beach. bringing cargo is possible on a kayak, but storage in inconvenient, and you can not have a passenger with you, ever.

Comparing a kayak to a row boat is like comparing a sports car with a motorcycle. Both can be fun and useful, and a very different kind of experience, and not really something you would compare.

 

I have read through a multitude of kayak suggestions. Nothing there gives me confidence I can achieve my benchmark performance.

The only kayak hands-on experience I've had was Demo Days, and that was a dismal performance failure, probably because of kayak design. I'm not going to design, build and modify a kayak that is a custom fit for me, only to find that I can't hold 4.0 mph for 1 mile.

Other than lightweight, there is really nothing about the kayak design that interests me. It is not my intention to navigate 5 foot wide creeks or bayous. If I don't have 25 feet width (to swing the oars), it won't be on my list of places to row (or paddle). If it doesn't have lake status, I ain't going. No ponds, no stock tanks, in general no rivers unless we are talking Mississippi River, Hudson River, River Thames, etc.

I believe the best solution is a lightweight rowboat that can be carried on roof racks. I will be seeing Dave Gentry at the Port Aransas Wooden Boat Show (Oct. 17) where he will be able to view my "benchmark" rowing skiff and with that info, perhaps provide me with suggestions that may lead me to one of his designs.

Or I could spend my retirement fund on a carbon fiber Heritage 18.

 

To each his own.
It's easy to dismiss alternate ideas when you don't even try.
I don't expect you to care what I think, but not even trying anything besides another row boat seems pretty short sighted.

With such a clear statement of what you don't want, I'm going to wish Dave good luck.

 

Correct.

No.

Kayaks and canoes (paddling) are poor biomechanical methods of propulsion. Their advantages over rowing are a) facing forward, and b) doing less work by having a smaller or more efficient boat.

It's like comparing pedaling with your arms vs your legs. The legs put out more power. No competition.

You see row boats where 1 person is carrying another, and it works just fine. Moving a 2 people in a kayak where you're the only one paddling? PITA!

I like canoeing on flat rivers and small lakes. It's more elegant than kayaking as you aren't waving a paddle in the air catching wind and dripping water on yourself. But if I needed to move a lot of weight over a long distance, I'd row. Or more likely, use a motor .

 

Dave's Ruth would be half the weight and a fraction of the cost.

Or, if you're feeling ruthless, his Shenandoah Whitehall would be half the weight of your current boat and probably about as fast. I believe one of the blokes over at the Wooden Boat Forum built a slightly stretched version just by spacing the frames out a bit.

 

I have had several opportunities to take lady friends out for a row and enjoyed every minute of it. Solo rowing with passenger.



For the same amount of rowing effort, I lose about 1/4 to 1/2 mph with passenger.
IMHO, I'd rather have a passenger and lose a little speed.

If I could teach them how to row, then I could row doubles and maybe gain 1 mph. But unfortunately, none of them can row.
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