Just bought the study plans for PAHI 31

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by valery gaulin, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    I am looking on the website to find more info and experience building and sailing the Pahi 31. I don't know if I will really start to eventually build a Pahi 31 but it is one step closer to my future project. I. still looking at different design option

    Basically I would lile to know what are the week points of this design and how it can be improved. There seams to be alot of Pahi 31 built to this day so I am sure that people found some ways to improve the weak points.
     
  2. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    If you ask they will send the plans to stretch it to 35 and use 2 Tiki sails like the Tiki 31. Most people think the Tiki wing sail sloop is faster and and less cluttered than the cutter. Updates are listed in the Wharram plan options. Lots of info out there. I think the construction uses less glue than the epoxy fillets of the coastal trek range.
     
  3. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Only my 2 cents but I cant see why you would build a Wharram now. I'd look around the used market and see if I could find a good used one to refurbish as the resale value is low.

    There are much better catamaran designs available now like one of Richard Woods designs for example. Much of the cost of the build is tied up in the cost of materials so you may as well build a new design rather than an old one.
     
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  4. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Pahi

    What Corley said.
    The only cheap thing about Wharrams are the resale. Sails, cordage, rigging, stoves, outboard etc all cost the same for a more modern design, if the cult of Wharram appeals though, just buy a used boat, and I would buy a Tiki with the deck pod.
     
  5. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    If you can get one used that is the way to go but I have a wrinkle..... Get a used 31, slice it in the center and add that 4" section to get in your building ya yas.

    I think if a boat appeals to you you will use it more so don't ignore the irrational. Wharrams sort of bring out the "How do I make this better." impulses. For myself a central dagger would be in the works. For sure the looks give it a more timeless appeal. The main attraction is the ability to disassemble and use appropriate, non expensive tech.

    Building from scratch I'd bug Richard. Watch some vids to get an idea of the differences in performance.
     
  6. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    The resale value argument is not a selling point to me. Find a DIY boat project that has a good resale value? Not many, unless it was semi-professionnal built from a reputable yard and even then, the resale value is not so good.

    For good resale value, the best is to buy a production sailboat and do a refit, but that is a rational decision!

    For some reason, I like the idea of building from scratch, even if it does not make sense rationnally.

    I am not set on a design yet. I went from catamaran, to dutch tjalk, to motorsailer, luxemotor and I am back to a catamaran. Anyway I bought the study plan for a Pahi 31!!! Not sure if it will be a the project I choose. I like WOODS catamaran design but it is all about compromises and it seams that right now the compromise of the Pahi 31 seams to be more inline with my thinking. But that could change.

    1.The wing sail seams to be a better option, this is what I though also.
    2.A central centerboard, seams like a good idea also.

    I like the ketch or schooner set up of the Tiki, can this be done with the Pahi 31? Basically having a mizzen sail that can be used to balance the COE.

    I also like the low tech approach and the vintage look.

    What I also know from experience in previous project. The longest part is the finishing touch. It seams that a Wharram Catamaran as less demanding for all the finishing touch and details that needs to get done for it to look good. There is a more raw appeal to it. I am not talking about cutting corners but the final esthetic.

    The desassembling otion seams to be a good idea if for some reason the catamaran needs to be transported or stored. Of curse not something you want to do on a regular basis but let say after a couple of year of sailing and need to bring it back home for a refit!
     
  7. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    The ketch/ schooner comes on the Pahi 31 stretch, same boat to 35' with 4' dropped in the middle. The daggerboard I'd just put in one hull in a conventional location versus 2 small ones in the bows.
     
  8. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Resale never is until you want/need to sell the boat. Everyone thinks they will build their dream boat and keep it for a lifetime.

    Self built farriers will not only sell for your materials but recoup some of your labor aswell, so the assertion that no self built boat will resell well is incorrect.

    However all losses are not equal. Wharrams are not efficient boats to build. They don't use materials well nor are they fast to build, and when you are finished they are worth a smaller proportion of what you have spent than a good design. They have low resale because they sail badly and have limited accommodations.

    A tiki 30 isn't a 30' boat, it's a 26' boat with huge overhangs and the accommodations of a 23' boat, but it takes the materials and labor that a proper 30' boat would require. Pahis are even worse.

    If you want V hulls and big overhangs but don't like Mr Woods offerings have a look at Mick Waller's truncated V's.

    http://wallerdesign.com.au/cs35.html

    Obviously a lot bigger than the pahi 31 but a MUCH nicer boat.

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/3-25ft-to-30ft-catamarans-designs

    surfsong or gypsy would be great choices.
     
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Thank you for mentioning my designs. I would suggest the Windsong rather than Surfsong as an offshore cruiser. Several have made Atlantic crossings, while I lived on the prototype Windsong for several years with my wife, including in the snow.

    Having said that, the cuddy makes life much more comfortable so I'd go for the Gypsy, indeed many people think that as well and the Gypsy is now more popular than the Windsong.

    Safety doesn't mean low windage. Crew comfort is essential. The old adage that a boat will survive more than the crew is very true. So the more comfortable the crew is the better they can survive bad weather.

    Although I haven't personally sailed a Pahi 31 I do know the boat. I worked on the "sort of" prototype 31 and also on the 35ft original. I raced and cruised the latter a lot.

    I didn't like the low boom that made most of the deck area unusable and forward vision was poor, just like on a boat with a deck sweeping genoa. I didn't like the hull access hatches as there was only a deck hatch, not a companionway with washboards. So using them, especially on the lee side, was dangerous and also there was a big drop into the hulls. The forward daggerboards didn't really work (I believe most Pahi owners don't use them). I don't think a 31ft boat with just 4ft 6in head room is a viable live aboard cruiser. For one thing the low freeboard means it is really wet to sail.

    The Tiki 30 is better, although again I haven't sailed one. However I have sailed against one in my Gypsy, we were about the same speed. And I've been on one - about the same interior room as my 24ft Strider, less than my new Eagle 24, obviously far less than on a Gypsy. I couldn't stand up in the hulls, the Gypsy has 6ft

    Plywood, epoxy, glass, paint etc cost the same whatever boat you build. So it is unlikely that a particular 30ft catamaran will cost less to build than another.

    Hope that helps you

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  10. aabella
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    aabella Junior Member

    There is a specific forum on Wharram catamarans called Wharram Builders and Friends, it also has a subforum on small Pahis that includes the Pahi 31. I suggest you to put your questions in that forum, so you can find answers from Pahi owners.
     
  11. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Thank you for all your reply.

    Like I said I am not set on a certain design yet.

    I did look at your plan Sir Woods and have to say that I really like Tamar 31 and Windsong. Your catamaran are of curse newer design and rationally seams to be a better option.

    I also looked at Waller catamaran and a design that looks very appealing to me is the Waller 880 the interior room is just amazing for a 30foot catamaran.

    What I love about the Pahi 31 is the beauty in its ugliness.

    Another aspect in my concern from past project that i learned, I did built a 29 foot long trimaran all in aluminum 0.06in thick all riveted, simple without cabin. Very cool project, actually I should try to put some photo up. Anyway what I learn is to take a project that you feel that can be finished. The Pahi 31 seams to be a faster built! And it can be built in a smaller work space by being detacheable. Finishing a project is the key!!! This is actually my fear to start and not finish like so many others.

    If fear would not be a problem, I would probably built a bigger catamaran.

    Another aspect that is in consideration is the the beam. People don't always realise but beamier catamaran or trimaran is a problem. Transportation from the build place to the launching. A wide catamaran can cost thousands of dollar in transportation. Marina fees is also a problem with catamaran. Going in a canal can also be a problem. On the other a beamier catamran is alot more confortable while cruising.

    So many things to consider!!!

    Not set yet on a design.
     
  12. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    It often is not a good idea to go to an enthusiasts group to get useful unbiased opinions. They are enthusiasts after all! You certainly wouldn't chose who to vote for by going to just one political website.

    When I built my prototype Windsong I had to make it demountable as otherwise it would not fit through the slipway gates. I took one hull though at a time and them joined them.

    But I never took it apart again. So a few years later we cut out the beam boxes and made it a rigid boat. Far superior! I was surprised just how heavy the beam boxes were and how much interior space they took up. So we ended up with a stiffer, more seaworthy, lighter and roomier bloat

    So I suspect few Pahis are ever dismantled after launching. And thus it is probably worth building a boat in pieces, assuming you are not building by the water, and then bonding it permanently at the launch site

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  13. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    I think you are right that most don't demount their Pahi. It is way to much work. It is only a consideratio if it is needed to move the catamaran for a long distance by road or for long term storage. I dont even think for a seasonal storage it is worth the work of demounting for the winter time and remounting it for the summer.

    On a different note, how much more work is imvolved to built Tamar 31 compared to Windsong?
     
  14. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    2 things here:

    Many people have been seduced by the idea of quick build boats. Much of that contemplation has been on hull skins and shapes. First you need to understand that building the hull skins isn't a very big part of the project overall, and so the impact on total completion for a V shaped plywood hull compared to a round foam glass hull is relatively small. Much of your labor is going into the details of the hull, the fitout, the rig etc. So for 2 boats similar in weight and accommodations there will not be huge differences. Consider the work required to build a galley, or even make and fit a few windows and hatches.

    The wharrams do win somewhat in these areas because as I mentioned before the pahi 31 has the accomodations of a "normal" 23 - 24' cat, not compatible with other boats in the 30' range, yet despite this your buying materials for and building 2 31' hulls. You don't even get the long waterline comfort and performance of a racing 30' boat.

    There are plenty of other designes which are demountable for occasional storage or transport. To get a truly trailerable catamaran in a large package is hard though. Mr Woods Sango is IMO by far the best of these.

    So here is some unsolicited advice, worth what your paying for it :)

    1. Get a piece of paper and make a list. Think about where you want to sail. Ocean, coast or protected waters. Cold weather or hot ? big swells ? shallow ? Then make some realistic assessments of how many people and how often. Family ? Couple ? Several couples ? Alone ? and the accommodations you REALLY want. Score them from 1 to 10, remembering accomodation is expensive and time consuming. Once you've written your criteria I think things will become clearer.

    2. Buy an old wharram. Not one that's shot but one that needs some work. They are worth almost nothing. There is a taneui north of me at the moment for $5k, I reckon you'd get it for $2k. For very little money you'll get experience fixing the boat, which will come in handy later, you get something to sail while you build and you can experience wharram sailing. This will tell you how you feel about spartan accommodations, getting wet, hobbyhorsing and not going to windward.

    Then build the smallest boat you can put up with.

    There is a demountable version of gypsy. That is a good boat and the accommodations are palatial compared to a pahi 31. Alternatively eagle is a really nice design and would be at least as fast and cheap to build as a pahi and a nicer boat to sail. I wouldn't cross an ocean in one, but then I wouldn't go to sea in a pahi 31 either.

    2c
     

  15. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Dudley Dix wood cats

    Perhaps a little bit larger than what you are thinking of, but you just might have a look at the construction process of these cats. And there is even a company making kits of it,...could make thing a lot easier and faster...;)

    http://www.exocetus.net/
    Exocetus Marine designs and manufactures plywood kits and components for the Dudley Dix range of catamarans.


    http://www.exocetus.net/why%20build%20with%20ply.html


    ...and it appears as though they are working towards a few smaller models.
     
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