Is the ocean broken?

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by daiquiri, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

    I thought you didn't believe in Hell.
    What's it like?
     
  2. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    Uncomfortably warm. Would like to avoid replicating it on Earth, if possible.
     
  3. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    William Nordhaus is a winner of the Nobel Prize in economics for his work on climate change. This is from an interview with him about his latest book, The Spirit of Green: The Economics of Collisions and Contagions in a Crowded World

    Nobel winner’s evolution from ‘dark realist’ to just plain realist on climate change
    • Economists have developed elegant and powerful theories about how the private sector works. But this does not apply to public goods
    • In a well-managed society we must recognize the need for collective actions as well as actions of the private sector
    • The COVID pandemic is a recent example. The patent system along with the pre-purchase agreements made vaccine development profitable for pharmaceutical companies
    • Both carbon pricing and support for low-carbon technologies are necessary if we’re going to reach our goals
    • Suing oil companies is an example of efforts that are extremely costly and extremely divisive
    • If you had a proper price on carbon there would be no need have companies waste their time disclosing their emissions
    • Almost every country has a carbon price except the United States and Russia
    • It would require extremely high carbon prices to get to zero carbon emissions by mid-century
     
  4. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    Agreed, but it would help keep lawyers out of the poor house.
    {read the above comment with tongue in cheek}.

    I think I understand what this means, but how would you collect on the carbon tax without an accurate accounting of emissions?

    Very extremely high. When you consider what the taxes and fines on tobacco products have done to their prices since my father use to give me three quarters and told me to go get him a pack of cigarettes out of the machine at the marina building. Yet, people still smoke except instead of everyone smoking only people on government assistance still smoke.

    -Will
     
  5. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    Got it. However, my point was really about the paradigm shift of viewing the transfer of heat. Does the cooler substance cool the warmer substance, taking its energy from it, or does the warmer substance heat the cooler substance imparting some of its energy to the cooler substance? It may sound like a semantec argument, and it is, but since we are concerned with where the heat of a warming globe is coming from and that measurement is mostly of the surface, understanding that warmth is also imparted from below into the crust helps shift our thinking to an important source of heat.

    The more I read about it, the more convinced I am becoming that phenomena like El Niño and La Niña are affected by geological sources. This would be significant, as we believe these two particular events heavily affect our weather.

    I also am not a chemist nor a physicist nor a meteorologist, but it is my understanding that breaking chemical bonds releases energy. Given that the UV light is zapping its way through our atmosphere regardless of the presence of CFCs there is no new energy gathered or absorbed by the CFCs that wouldn't be gathered and absorbed by other gases.

    Yes, all gases act this way, as I understand it, but there is a reason we don't use air in our refrigerators, even though it would work.

    -Will
     
  6. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    You tax oil, gas and coal when it is produced. That cost will likely filter down to the consumer, but the consumer has a choice of whether or not to continue using it. If its cheaper, they can switch to an electric stove instead of a gas or propane stove. If its cheaper, they can switch to an electric car instead of a gasoline car. If its cheaper, they can use an electric heat pump to heat their house instead of a fuel oil boiler. Other things, like perhaps flying, will take longer to develop a "green" alternative.

    And there is talk of refunding the carbon tax to everyone equally. Poor people, who already use little carbon-based fuels, will therefore be hurt less than rich people, who typically use a lot more carbon-based fuels.
     
  7. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    Since the inner core is slowly accreting iron crystals that freeze, it seems to me that Earth must be cooling. And the only way it can cool is through the crust, and thence through radiation into space. So I guess you could say that Earth's surface is receiving energy both from below and from above. But as was noted in a previous post, the amount of heat that the surface receives from the sun is much greater than the amount of heat the surface receives from Earth's innards.
    What sources are you reading that suggest "that phenomena like El Niño and La Niña are affected by geological sources?"
    There are both endothermic (absorb heat) and exothermic (release heat) chemical reactions. Examples of each are single-use cold packs and hot packs.

    My understanding is that the so-called greenhouse gases are pretty much transparent to incoming UV radiation. What they really affect (absorb) is the outgoing infra-red radiation.
     
  8. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    And yet, we just read that CFCs are over a thousand times more potent as a greenhouse gas, yet UV breaks them down. Huh!

    -Will
     
  9. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

    Those carbon taxes hurt the little guys but not the super rich promoting them.
    Families will starve which falls right in line with the depopulation agenda.
     
  10. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    Depopulation agenda? Why would rich people want to depopulate? Where would they get their market base, and the relatively poorer people are what elevate their status as rich people. No, what they want is a wider and wider gap between the super rich and everyone else.

    Elitism is the goal, if there actually is any organization to their crab bucket mentality.

    -Will
     
  11. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

  12. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

  13. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    Coral reefs may start dissolving faster than they can grow by 2054
    • Data from 36 coral reef sites were analyzed in 11 countries, including the Great Barrier Reef in Australia and Shiraho Reef in Japan
    • The rate at which coral reefs are depositing new calcium carbonate has been dropping by around 4 per cent per year since 1970
    • If this trend continues corals may stop growing altogether by the year 2054
    • Some corals in the northern part of the Florida Reef Tract have already reached this point
    The research was published in Communications Earth & Environment
     
  14. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

    May or may not. It's all coming to an end. The year is a surprise.
     

  15. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    Joint NASA, NOAA Study Finds Earth's Energy Imbalance Has Doubled
    • Earth’s energy imbalance has approximately doubled during the 14-year period from 2005 to 2019
    • Scientists at NASA and NOAA compared data from two independent measurements. NASA's Clouds and the Earth's Radiant Energy System (CERES) suite of satellite sensors measure how much energy enters and leaves Earth's system. In addition, data from a global array of ocean floats, called Argo, enable an accurate estimate of the rate at which the world’s oceans are heating up.
    • The imbalance is partially the result an increase in greenhouse gases due to human activity
    • Partly due to increases in water vapor that are trapping more outgoing longwave radiation
    • Partly due to a related decrease in clouds and sea ice, leading to more absorption of solar energy
    • And partly due to a flip of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) from a cool phase to a warm phase
    • Loeb cautions that the study is only a snapshot relative to long-term climate change, and that it's not possible to predict with any certainty what the coming decades might look like for the balance of Earth's energy budget. The study concludes that unless the rate of heat uptake subsides, greater changes in climate than are already occurring should be expected.
    The study is published in Geophysical Research Letters
     
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