Is it Possible

[Petros]

We had a winding staircase and used it for years, 4 kids, cats, dogs etc and never had a problem, but since it didn't have an inner handrail, as most don't, the path next to the center post is almost a straight drop to the bottom of the staircase and the potential for a bad tumble is there. So I asked well I built my house and I built a winding staircase in it, if I sell my house am I liable for that thing? Yes, he said.

This is not exactly accurate. there are building codes for spiral built stairs, residential spiral stairs can be much tighter and smaller than "public access" stairs, and residential stairs only need one hand rail on one side. If the stairs met the code at the time it was built, there is no liability since the stair was the current "standard of care" at the time it was built. It will not necessarily stop you from being sued if some one is injured, but they will not get very far if you have competent legal representation. In my professional capacity as a licensed engineer I have stop dead something like 17 similar law suits, claiming negligence. I wrote a report quoting the code requirements, and demonstrating the building was in fact compliant. If that was what is deemed "safe" at the time, there is no liability since anyone, amateur or professional, would have built it the same way.

As far as the original posters idea for a "retirement" business, there are lots of skilled craftsman that sell attractive boats out of home shops. Build one for yourself, enjoy it, see if you can find a buyer. once it is sold, build another one. if you use plans designed by a professional or from a well known plan company (Glenn-L for example), there would be very little liability exposure, and the volume you will be selling will never amount to much in terms of numbers. I would not worry about it. IF you were selling 300-400 boats a year to people you do not know and will never meet, that is some thing very different than selling a half dozen a year for a few years.

I think you will find that as an enjoyable hobby there are few things more satisfying. But it is not a big money maker, anything that is hand crafted takes way more hours to make than usually the market is willing to pay. A few custom orders, a few causal sales where people see your work and really like it, but do not ever expect to make a full time income doing it. This unfortunately is true with almost all handy craft type of incomes.

 

[SamSam]

The OP was about

is there truly a market out thee for backward built boats.

No there isn't. Sure you can sell anything, but if you even get your materials money back, you'd be lucky. That is not a "market".

Building codes? I wasn't working out of a licensed engineer cubicle or with plans, this was out in the regular world, in rural Wisconsin in the early 80s. You didn't need building permits and there were no building inspectors or electrical inspectors.

Reading between the lines, stopping 17 negligence lawsuits with one report sounds like a class action suit against something that passed the minimum legal requirements of a building code but mechanically failed to do what it was supposed to do. I didn't build **** like that.

As I said above, it's extremely unlikely that a person would ever get sued. As I said above, it isn't that a person would be found guilty and liable, but that if you get sued, you have to piss away thousands of $ on 'competent legal representation' just to prove you're innocent. As I said above, boats aren't like cabinets or furniture or even buildings, it's real easy to die in a boat. And as I said above, if jim gerst builds a boat and sells it, or even gives it away, he should realize that for as long as it exists he may have varying degrees of liability.

 

[Ike]

there are lots of skilled craftsman that sell attractive boats out of home shops. Build one for yourself, enjoy it, see if you can find a buyer. once it is sold, build another one

In my job with the USCG, and since I retired, I have talked with hundreds of boat builders. Many of them got started exactly as stated above. This is not a business in which you are going to get rich or even make a living. But if you build a good product and people like your work, word will get around. Word of mouth is one of the best sales methods and when starting out it is about all you can afford. It takes time to build up a small boat building business. In other words, don't quit your day job. If you are like me and have a good retirement income you can afford to take your time.

See the Business Of Boat Building http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/business.html

 

[Petros]

Building codes? I wasn't working out of a licensed engineer cubicle or with plans, this was out in the regular world, in rural Wisconsin in the early 80s. You didn't need building permits and there were no building inspectors or electrical inspectors.

than the legal "standard of care" was "let the buyer be wary". how is it that if no codes were enforced, and no inspections for safety were ever done on any home at the time, that anyone can effectively argue to a judge that you were negligent? There must be a standard to which you are held in order for you to be liable. If there was no standard, than there is no basis for a law suite. In most states, and in yours as well, there is usually a statue of limitations of 6, or 7 or ten years. Than there is no basis for any legal action.

Reading between the lines, stopping 17 negligence lawsuits with one report sounds like a class action suit against something that passed the minimum legal requirements of a building code but mechanically failed to do what it was supposed to do. I didn't build **** like that.

allow me to clarify: I would never defend a dishonest or negligent builder or home owner, professional and personnel ethics does not allow me to do that. Each of these cases were frivolous attempts by unscrupulous gold diggers to try and extort money out of an innocent party based on an unwarranted claim of negligence or liability. These were all separate cases, each one stopped with a well written report (17 cases, 17 reports addressing the claims), pointing out the facts of the matter, and the law. These case would have likely lost in courts, but it is far cheaper to stop them before they even get started with a report that spells out all of the facts, the law, and my clients legal and ethical responsibilities. Although, the outcome in a court room is anything but certain, so it is best to avoid it if possible (judges can be just as biased and ignorant as anyone else). A well written report addressing the claims will stop a frivolous suite cold long before you get to court, and save everyone time and money. lots of hungry lawyers may believe there was something to their clients claims, but since I usually know the laws better than they do, once they get my report their will drop the case. they know there is no money to win.

If someone came to me asking me to help them get out of liability that they caused, I would tell them to fix the problem and get on with their life. I will not help someone be irresponsible or hide behind distortions of law to avoid liability. Law suites are costly, time consuming and often drag on way longer than they should. Some unscrupulous people will use and abuse the system if they think there is something they can gain from it. Once I point out that that will not happen, the gold diggers or the dishonest party will go look for some one else to harass.

I do not need to take on unethical clients to pay my bills, I have too many honest and hard working clients and will not take time away from them to protect some crook. There is are few things I detest more than gold diggers, liars and people seeking misbegotten gains.

 

[SamSam]

What I'm saying is building a boat and selling it exposes a person to liabilities. Even if a suit was totally unfounded and bound to be tossed out, as a defendant it will cost time and money, worry and aggravation. Even if you only consult with a lawyer, that costs money, probably in the hundreds. The next step of involvement with lawyers immediately goes to thousands of $. They have to interact with the other attorney(s), the courts and they have to seek out and pay expert consultants for advice and reports. Just like what happened to you 17 times. In your capacity as a licensed engineer, you didn't put your reputation on the line and supply information and reports for gratis or $20 or a case of beer and lunch. You got paid well for it by the blameless defendant.

I don't know, it seems you're making my point.

Law suites are costly, time consuming and often drag on way longer than they should. Some unscrupulous people will use and abuse the system if they think there is something they can gain from it.

The OP asks if there is a market for home made boats, but has no information at all concerning what kind of boats he intends to build, or what size, or what materials, or what use, so in truth, how can he expect much of an answer? I don't think there is a market, but then again he leaves no hint of what a 'market' might mean. I'm pointing out that there are liabilities involved if he sells one. He can decide what the risk is and if it's worth it.

 

[PAR]

You are only liable if you screw up, intentionally or not. I've been involved in a few suits as well and all where tossed.

It's a business decision actually, among certain folks. The old saying applies - "you don't get what you don't ask for". In most cases a phone call or two from your attorney will resolve the issue(s). Typically the next step for them, is to ask for some sort of arbitration or settlement, instead of a protracted court battle. Again, a savvy businessmen or your attorney will just say, "bite me - see you in court", which is the end of the problem, because they never intended to go to court with this, but to wiggle a settlement out of you, justified or not. Yes, there's some costs involved, but most states will let you recover some if not all of your costs, if you do win your case. If you don't go to court (90% of cases don't) and have a few attorney's fees, well welcome to the business world and if you don't have an attorney, you can use somewhat regularly, your business isn't going to survive long. Attorneys and accountants are a fact of business life, even for a one man shop. My attorney is a buddy of mine that I've know for about a 1/4 of a century. I'll call him and he'll make a call or two, maybe file a motion, problem solved. Yep, he deserves to get paid for his efforts just like me.

 

[SamSam]

I was under the impression this is about a back yard build and was not a savvy business venture with a retained legal firm or paid accountants.

I'm not aware if there is a difference in the liability of a corporate 'manufacturer' of a boat as opposed to a hobbyist building in his garage. I can't imagine a judge dismissing a case because a hobbyist was ignorant of the law.

I'm using liable in the sense of answerable. I'm saying a backyard builder has a liability, a potential legal obligation in any boat he makes. Even if he doesn't sell it and keeps it for personal use, there is a heightened legal responsibility and obligation in a boat he made and sold as compared to a boat he bought and sold.

Any legal involvement or any involvement with lawyers costs money, and the amount of money involved can quickly escalate into thousands of dollars, even for a completely blameless defendant.

It's well and good that you two solved the legal problems so easily. I can't see the relevancy though. You both claim they were open and shut cases, without a chance of the plaintiff winning and should never have been initiated. That's all fine and dandy, but the fact is the lawsuits were initiated, all as a result of somebody making something or performing a service. Lawyers and money were involved. Petros made money on the deal, but it cost Par money. The suits were groundless but the defendants lost money anyways.

Any battle stories you bring up just reinforces what I'm trying to say.

Maybe I'm wrong. Are there no legal responsibilities involved in a DIY boat build that is sold?

Browse these topics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_liability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_liability

I wouldn't want to pay attorneys to bill me the hours for figuring out and arguing about which set of laws are applicable to the case, and then the same to figure out my culpability, or my percent of culpability.

Courts and law are notoriously subjective. They vary widely from state to state. It's also a good ole' boy network. You sell a boat in Washington state, a guy takes it to New Jersey and has a problem with it and initiates a suit, everything you know about lawyers and law in Washington doesn't matter, because your problem will be in New Jersey courts dealing with New Jersey laws and New Jersey lawyers.

You guys have lawyer friends, and other people here do too, that you could probably ask, for free, about this question of potential liability of a backyard boat build that is sold. Ask them and post what they say, it will be interesting to me at least.

I am not interested about the percent of likely hood of being sued as I realize it is very, very small. I am just interested in the possible liabilities.

You guys have remarked of your experiences with the law and kind of poo-poo my theories of liability. But none of us are lawyers. Over on the WoodenBoat forums, there was the thread about the Absolut 80, a boat designed and built by two teachers who poured their life savings into it in the hopes of opening a charter business on the St. Lawrence River. It started out as a chronicle of their 'debatable' design and building practices, and when the boat wouldn't float when launched, it escalated into an international internet pile on of ridicule. That went on for a year or two, completely unregulated by WoodenBoat. It ended up with hundreds of pages and thousands of posts. I finally (and firstly) posted that this was sort of stupid as a lot of the things being posted in the thread were slanderous and libelous. That kind of halted the party and then a few said how so? and others said BS and I said here's these folks with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in this legitimate enterprise, and here are all of these statements on this forum declaring the build unsafe, declaring that anybody that ever went on it would be fools as their lives were in immediate danger from the unsafe construction of the boat, and that the basis of a lawsuit for slander, libel, deformation of character, damages to their future business etc was all chronicled right there on the WoodenBoat forum, for all the world to see. For a few hours the feeling was I was full of ****, and then a few piped up with they could see the point and then some said it was so. Within hours the OP (who was onsite, chronicling the build with photos and information on the sly) was backing away, making lame disclaimers. Within a day, portions of the thread were gone, within a few days the entire thread was gone from the forum, within a week the whole thread was expunged from the internet. I kind of view that as a confirmation that some of my legal theories might be valid.

 

[TANSL]

SamSam, I very much agree with many things you say.
I wonder if behind some opinions expressed herein will not be the interest of demonstrating that no technical support is needed to build ships, it is enough to do what has been done for 30 years because, in case of accident, this reasoning we rid of all guilt.
You can have a crash that involved another look, with a boat made for yourself (not sold to anyone) and it may be that an injured person will claim damages through legal channels.
I do not see the problem one may have to do everything correctly and legally from the begining, without taking on more risk than necessary.

 

[Petros]

you can not do anything without some level of risk, for business or personal activities. You take on liabilities when you drive a car, tow a boat, or use a boat, even if you ridge a bike. Or run a buisness, larger or small, or even a micro business. you can not avoid it.

the issue is that you just do not want to take on any unnecessary risks, and you want to understand and mange the ones you do take on.

 

[SamSam]

Yes. As far as boats a quick look at old stats showed that as far as type, fatalities per 1 million hours for motor and sailboats were 0.6, rowboat and inflatable 1.2 and canoes 2.1 .

Operator age and experience has a lot to do with it. In the 10-29 year old bracket, the rate plunges from 12 to 1 with 100 hrs of experience.

Young people in canoes and rowboats have the worst rate, almost 9 compared to around 1 in all other categories.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1403385/

I don't know how boating compares to any other categories such as car driving etc, but I did see one study that rated rec boating half as dangerous as rock climbing.

It comes down to a risk/reward assessment. Selling a home made boat entails a financial risk but I can't see much financial reward.

 

[Petros]

Selling a home made boat entails a financial risk but I can't see much financial reward.

unfortuantuly, this is true for almost all small buisness activities. As an engineer, I can earn a similar salary, with benefits, working for a large corporation, as I do in my consulting firm. I would have almost zero risk, and liability, none of my personal assets, property, etc are at risk relative to my income earning activities.

But as a self employed consulting engineer, everything I do in my business exposes me to unlimited personal liability. That is, everything I own and everything I have ever saved is at risk.

From a risk standpoint, there is no small business ever worth doing over working for someone else. But life is full of risks. And there are other important considerations other than pure financial. I am completely miserable working for large companies where I have no say-so in how, what, where or when I get to do my work (even how I dress is dictated by policy out of my control). I think the measured risks I take being self employed are worth the alternative of being enslaved to an employer's will. many others do not feel that way.

this is what anyone must consider when starting any type of business. I would presume the OP will take all we write here and weigh it in comparison to the enjoyment he would get out of a micro business building boats in his home workshop.

Perhaps it is a good thing that there are so many willing to take that risk, and start their own small business. That is where almost all of the innovation comes from.