IOR to IMS

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by sharpii2, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. yokebutt
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    yokebutt Boatbuilder

    Alright then, Frank,

    Perhaps that was a bit too tall of an order. Instead, just tell me about the last regatta or race you did with your boat. (you know, the type with a race-committee, start/finish lines, marks and all that) I'll go first to give you an example: Last weekend I sailed a Wabbit in the high sierra regatta at Huntington lake, of an 11 boat one-design fleet, we finished fourth in a series of three races. See how easy that is? Now it's your turn to tell.

    Yoke.
     
  2. sorenfdk
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    sorenfdk Yacht Designer

    Oh - please distress us! How few?
     
  3. Jim Hauser
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    Jim Hauser Junior Member

    Migghie has alphabet soup for a race history.

    I think the last place he wasn't DFL, or DNF was early this year. It's all on his club website in the race results. He did get an 8th out of 10 in one of the races however.

    His greatest claim is finishing last in the race where the Tripp 47 went home early. Of course he doesn't tell you that he finished 3 hours and 15 minutes later than the boat rated slower than him. Frankie also forgot to mention that his fleet had to sail half the distance of the regular fleet. I also think he forgot to mention that when he finished the Tripp was within 5 miles of the real finish line. They sailed nearly twice the distance he did in the same amount of time. He also conveniently forgot to mention that the Tripp didn't even have to come down to win the series. The lucky crew of the Tripp got to go in and get warm, dry, and eat Tide's burgers while we sat out there waiting for the storm to come in and bring wind in the off chance we may be able to move up in the standings.
     
  4. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Alright then, Frank,

    Perhaps that was a bit too tall of an order. Instead, just tell me about the last regatta or race you did with your boat. (you know, the type with a race-committee, start/finish lines, marks and all that) I'll go first to give you an example: Last weekend I sailed a Wabbit in the high sierra regatta at Huntington lake, of an 11 boat one-design fleet, we finished fourth in a series of three races. See how easy that is? Now it's your turn to tell.

    Yoke.


    Yoke, I know there is a movement to keep "non-racers" off important commitees and boards at US Sailing, South Sound Sailing Society and PHRF organizations. The idea is that only those who race competitively can possibly understand the complex issues of setting up a race course, organizing a commitee boat, getting fleet insurance etc etc. To this I say hogwash - or to be nautical I say prop wash. :) All it takes are two crews who want to have some fun and charter a couple of sailboats in the BVIs or this time of year, in the San Juans, where the Macgregor.com fleet is now. (Good to see Mac26x Avocet going down I5 last night.) But to answer your question, I was out racing last wednesday. Hope to do so again tomorrow and am preparing for "my series", (The Secretary Series which starts on July 27.)

    Frank L. Mighetto
    Member SSSS

    Now let me explain why there is a movement, a back lash really because it really is over. It started with the discovory by US Sailing's management consultants that the sport has been loosing 100,000 sailors per year. The why of this goes beyond the sad fact that the US teams do poorly against international competition. It speaks to the blemishes on the sport like Tripp Gal who go out of their way to make sailing not fun and send their thugs out to shut down forums like http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/ and http://www.ssssclub.com/bar.htm and follow fellows like me from forum to forum to be "handled". Part of the handling is tricking racers into thinking windward leeward courses and vessels known as "big boats" are what sailing is all about. The S#%t hit the fan when US Sailing divested itself of ORC and proclaimed that it would be supporting the cruiser-racer vessels instead of the elite race boats. The movement, of to which you apparently belong, had expected to extract funds from the cruising folks to support the big elite boats. Tripp Gal has no ligitimate business as a PHRF rater; she and her big-boat kind are symptoms of the larger problem - that being that the race game has become not fun owing to the way it is played off the race course with design rules, course design and thuggary.

    remember now - I am a permanant write in candidate for any office at US Sailing or South Sound Sailing Society. Your Seattle Progressive Sailor :)

    BTW, I do crew on a 42 foot Catalina owned by my sister out of Point Richmond. Some of my closest friends are big boat owners :)
     
  5. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Jim, I really didn't want to make this about me. Lets make it instead about Tripp Gal. :) Lets be certain to mention that Tripp Gal orchestrated a boycott against South Sound Sailing Society, recommending that members dissatisfied with my vocal ridicule of her and her kind on Sailing Anarchy not pay their membership fees to SSSS . This actually back fired. We did have 30 or so boycott but then twice that number returned or joined for the first time. SSSS now represents close to 600 sailors.

    Then Tripp Gal tried boycotting the Toliva Shoal race. This was because I had let it slip that a former MacGregor Yacht owner was in charge of the race, and her kind goes after all who might support an enemy. The race was damaged by her, not in attendance, though my wife would not let me race Murrelet for fear of being bumped by this angry eater of young sailors. Instead we watched the mark at toliva shoal and were distressed to see that Tripp Gal had convinced enough racers to just stop racing at the midpoint mark. Other vessels including our coward of a vice commodor's sailed the entire course back to the beer. Tripp Gals boat is dry.

    And of course there are the four attempts to have me excluded from the society. Even so, she shook my hand a week or so ago. I intend to turn her into a friend one day. I like to think she was duped into purchasing an old race boat and is basically a good person. Nonetheless she should not be a PHRF rater.

    Murrelet did finish first of her kind among 50 power sailers a month ago. We are getting the hang of things. Last wednesday I sailed the lee to the first mark. This is ok for a fast boat but is usually the poorest of strategies and I knew that. In addition we have a current you can take advantage of to windward. Even then she did well. She is fast enough for racing PHRF.

    I did enjoy the press in 48 north on the race where the Tripp 47 went home early. Tripp's thugs had posted on the Internet prior to the race that "woe be it to any passed by Murrelet". Of the 12 in cruising class only 5 got listed on the official race sheet. Those embarassed by my little boat simply did not report back to the commitee boat. When that happens they do not get listed. This is an example of taking a penulty for an advantage. It shouldn't be that way. Next time there may be a protest. 48 north posted the unofficial race results that acurately portrayed what happened that day. I love chatting about this. Thanks. Murrelet got press for four or five months in 48 north. We still have visitors recognizing us for that. It must just piss off those who would make racing a political struggle of wills and pretend it is controlled by big boat owners at PHRF-NW.
     
  6. Shife
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Michigan

    Shife Anarchist

    "Jim, I really didn't want to make this about me. Lets make it instead about Tripp Gal."

    Frank, you are nothing more than a pathetic troll. You ignore the facts given and twist the rest into a pathetic drivel that has nothing to do with the questions presented before you. The only thing that you have proven in that post is that you are a lonely, bitter, ill-experienced man, who will never outright win any race. You don't have the first clue as to how to set up a start line. The day someone allows you on a PHRF committee is a sad day for sailors in your area.

    "Last wednesday I sailed the lee to the first mark."

    So what happened when you got to the windward mark? Did you give up because you still haven't figured out how to make a boat go to windward? Your fellow racers have made it very apparent that you are not a threat on the course, rather an annoyance at the club.
    Respond to the questions in this and other posts directly or don't respond at all.
     
  7. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Nice, bite. Hook line sinker :) Let me put my answer in the context of the Transpac.

    The Dorade, a 52 foot yawl designed by Olin Stephens, and the Santa Cruise 70 are two of only 4 vessels to be first to finish, first in class and first overall in the Transpac, a race to Hawaii that has been run regularly since 1906. Analisis of these two boats has value in showing the future of yacht design and it speaks to what is necessary to be a sail boat designer.

    The Dorade win in 1936 made Olin and Rod Stephens unusual designs legendary world wide. Olin in February of 1988 confided in an oral history at Mystic Seaport that Ken Davidson was his mentor in applying science to sailboat design. Davidson was a physics or math professor in 1931 when young Olin first met him. Davidson had taken training in the Navy as well as graduating from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The Stephens had built Gimcrack S & S in hopes of getting a one-design class started. Davidson built a model for this vessel and tank tested it, the result being an education for young Olin and also the Gimcrack Coefficients which were applied to the driving and heeling forces of sails and rigs. Olin states about Davidson,

    "I would say the only bad advice he ever gave me was this: I said, 'I don't worry much about the naval architecture, I'm not going to school as a naval architect, but I wish I knew more about calculus.' He said. 'Oh, you can always get someone to do that for you." (laughter) Since I've gotten involved with the computer, I wish I could do more of it myself." Olin Stephens also states "I often kick myself, because with the knowledge that Ken had and a lot of which he passed along to me, I think we could have advanced a lot faster then we had."

    In 1977, Bill Lee decided to take advantage of the potential of fiberglass by making an ultra light displacement boat. His Santa Cruise 70 Merlin not only won the Transpac but held the record for this race for 20 years. This is one of the longest ocean racing records. It took Pyewacket, a water ballasted racer, to better Merlin. These names are important even today for the 2005 Transpac . I do not think Bill Lee had any formal training in design - but then this I will be researching.

    One of the longest ocean race records still unbroken is held by a MacGregor 65 in the sister race to the Transpac - The Newport Ensinada race. Her designer and builder had no formal training in boat design or in naval archetecture and wasn't a racer until after founding MacGregor Yachts.

    I could talk about the founder of Hobbie Cats but then I haven't done the research there either and multi-hulls don't count right :) What I am attempting to demonstrate is that what makes a good sailboat designer is the ability to take a few carefully spun myths about the sport and see that they are Bravo Sierra. If out of 10 myths the designer can see two or three that are BS, he has an excellent chance of coming up with a viable profitable design.
     
  8. water addict
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    water addict Naval Architect

    OK back to the original post-
    IMS was originally MHS (measurement handicap system) then changed it's name to IMS (international measurement system). The origination of MHS occured in 1976? with the Irving Pratt project at MIT to develop a VPP for a handicap rule, instead of a design rule which IOR was.
    There was a period of co-existence with IOR in the mid 80s to around 1990. In 1985 ORC adopted IMS to co-exist with IOR as a rating rule. IOR started dwindling for the same reason IMS eventually did. The highest bidder almost always won, i.e. the newest boat with the latest exploitation of the rule that some very rich owner could afford would go pound the competition until a newer boat came along. When IOR died, the big dollar guys had to move the money game to IMS because there was nothing else. It was a harder rule to exploit, but sure enough as computer models and computing power increased, the designers started poking holes in the rule for the right price. The first IMS example of this was Collaboration, a purpose built IMS race boat. Then Farr got into it with Gaucho, Full Cry, etc. and it was deja vous all over again.
    IOR was pretty much gone by 1990. The good of it is that IMS produced much better handling boats than IOR, and much faster for a given length. Collaboration I think was 44 or 45 feet, and would blow the doors off the hottest IOR 50 footer of 1990.
    The bad is as always- nothing goes to weather like money, money always won.
     
  9. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Shife]

    "Jim, I really didn't want to make this about me. Lets make it instead about Tripp Gal."

    Frank, you are nothing more than a pathetic troll. You ignore the facts given and twist the rest into a pathetic drivel that has nothing to do with the questions presented before you.


    Lighten up. :) In a court of law or court of public opinion when those I will now call pimples can not argue the logic they may try character assasination. For those not capable of seeing facts and critical thinking, character is the only thing left upon which to base opinion. I present facts like Finisterre showing that race wins prove nothing in sail boat design and you attach my character. We have many problems in this country, must this technique so common in governing the nation be applied also to our sport?

    The only thing that you have proven in that post is that you are a lonely, bitter, ill-experienced man,

    But not Paranoid? If you had used the word paranoid I would have said - typical script from a dirty trick book.

    who will never outright win any race.

    You just are not getting it. We play a race game. It has rules, courses, and procedures that when they do not appear fair turn literally hundreds of thousands away from the sport. I win real races (two boats headed in the same direction) all the time. I expect to win PHRF races from time to time because, contrary to what you may think, in PHRF and in IRC every boat when competently crewed can win. Now let me get on owner-driver. I already mentioned that crew are prohibited from purchasing a race boat as a group. This kind of thing is what made the sport interesting 60 years ago. The other bad thing about owner-driver is that it kills the fun of serries racing. At SSSS it is the boat that races. Owners who can not make a couple of races in the series owing to schedules or what ever, are encouraged to let their crews race with out them for a series win. It is fun that way.

    You don't have the first clue as to how to set up a start line.

    Let me rephrase: You are likely to set up a start line (and finish line) that disadvantages the windward-leeward machines. Or you are likely to select a first mark that is not directly to windward thereby favoring the planing vessels. Or you are likely to make the finish line wide thereby favoring the planing vessels. Or you are likely to broadcast on VHF the start so that it is a fair start and fewer vessels crowd the commitee boat so they can see the flags and hear the signals. Hell you probably will also broadcast the GPS coordinants of the marks and select an Olympic style triangle course instead of a windward-leeward oriented one. All of that is true. Fortunately, I am only required to serve as commitee boat once per season. Perhaps not at all now - eh? I wish now to say that a great thing about SSSS is that all race vessels must serve as committee boat. At CYC Seattle, one fellow on one powerboat is about to handle all races for the next two years. I see little good in that. Selecting which race to run based on who is doing commitee work is part of the game.

    The day someone allows you on a PHRF committee is a sad day for sailors in your area.

    Well you can be certain that the marks will be there when you get there. Having a power sailer means a quick check is possible. It isn't like what happens every other year at SSSS with protests because a mark is missing. Hey you want to see a mess - see what happens when someone snags a mark and moves it. Listing the marks by GPS just makes so much sense. At least then racers know what phantom to round when the mark is missing or obviously moved. Simple things like this are what you can look forward to from my commitee boat.

    "Last wednesday I sailed the lee to the first mark."

    So what happened when you got to the windward mark? Did you give up because you still haven't figured out how to make a boat go to windward? Your fellow racers have made it very apparent that you are not a threat on the course, rather an annoyance at the club..


    I wasn't able to start the race on time. This owing to Lake Fair mostly but I hadn't planned on racing and did so owing to a post on this forum.

    When passing Circus, I notified the commitee boat that I was not going to complete the race. The game I was playing was proving that my POS can point, which she can. I caught the fleet by the first mark and after rounding (which I do poorly without crew) fired up the wallis and cooked dinner. Then I waited for the sun set. However, I will admit without qualms that I can not figure out what you all do with the poles. I fiddled with that thing and produced only drag - best I can tell. Thanks to Dwayne I did round on the starboard. Folks are a lot more friendly when they are actually racing. Don't you think?

    Respond to the questions in this and other posts directly or don't respond at all

    You are a demanding muse :)
     
  10. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    Can you elaborate? One has to recognize that a world war had just wound down and that the Americas Cub Charter was in the process of being modified to allow the 12 meter vessels instead of the J-boats. Part of the problem (from a design standpoint) is that no one outside of a sailor follows the Burmuda race or the Transpac or Block Island or Swiftsure or any number of wothy other races but almost all sport fans follow the America's Cup. Hence notions of design that lubbers have come from those vessels. What I am saying is that Finisterre should have set a standard in design that carried for 50 years based on her race record and that design rules explain why that standard was ignored. It is just like the battle between Microsoft and Apple where Gates points out to Jobs after Jobs claims he has the best operating system that you do not have to have the best product if you are marketing to Americans.
     
  11. TheFarSide
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    TheFarSide Junior Member

    Let's set the record straight.

    Tripp Gal is a highly respected and welcomed contributor to the MacGregor Sailors Forum (now down with database problems, not because of TG). Her helpful writings there are sailor to sailor, without even a hint of the arrogance of some "real" sailors, with "real" sailboats.

    Mighetto, on the other hand, is viewed by most there as an unwelcome troll and a nut case, pretty much the same as he is here and on SA.
     
  12. Jim Hauser
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    Jim Hauser Junior Member

    This coming from a man who spews libelous and slanderous materials on a daily basis. Go figure.
     
  13. Shife
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Shife Anarchist

    " I already mentioned that crew are prohibited from purchasing a race boat as a group."

    Completely false. Yet another fine showing of your lack of understanding of sailing and sailboat racing. I race against several PHRF boats that are group owned. I will be crewing on one this weekend in a 200+ mile distance race. As usual, you are wrong.

    Your preference for triangle "parade of boats" courses is obvious. It's the only type of course your boat has half a chance in.

    "Let's set the record straight.

    Tripp Gal is a highly respected and welcomed contributor to the MacGregor Sailors Forum (now down with database problems, not because of TG). Her helpful writings there are sailor to sailor, without even a hint of the arrogance of some "real" sailors, with "real" sailboats.

    Mighetto, on the other hand, is viewed by most there as an unwelcome troll and a nut case, pretty much the same as he is here and on SA."

    Your local competitors have called you on your lies time and again. Try to put the keyboard down for a while and gain some actual experience and knowledge before you come back.
     
  14. skinny boy
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    skinny boy Junior Member

    But to answer your question, I was out racing last wednesday. Hope to do so again tomorrow and am preparing for "my series", (The Secretary Series which starts on July 27.)

    We have seen at least two people show the slate of officers for the SSSS and your name doesn't appear any where on it. You are mentally unbalanced. You were removed from the office of secretary. The new officers have taken office and you are not one of them. It is not "your series".

    You are a borderline stalker. You refuse to accept reality and your obsession with Tripp Gal is to the point where if I were Tripp Gal I would seek a restraining order. You seem to be one step short of being a predator. You need professional help.
     

  15. sorenfdk
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    sorenfdk Yacht Designer

    As usual, your "answer" to a direct question is nothing but a load of irrelevant BS.
    I ask you again: How few designers race?
    And please elaborate on that other statement: Those who race design poorly. And this time, your answer should consist of numbers and names.
     
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