Infusion Q&A

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by jim lee, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    But what do i know ??

    csm and woven roving are the two most widly used glasses on the planet but together they use lots resin . change your glass that you use and you can make a stronger and lighter boat . not only change materials but change methods of laminating and noticably you can see better results !!.
    There are new types of glass material coming on the market all the time . theres even manufactures making differant width glass so can cut down on joins and overlaps are kept to a minimum can mix wide and narrow and the joins are placed where there are stringers so with a little thought can make a better boat with less of the better cloths .
    Some where there is a limit as to how much resin a glass needs to work to its optimin and give the greatest overall performance of strength, flexability ,and durability !
    Infusion is part way to stepping over that line and resin starvation is a fine line somewhere in there .
    Suck it tight and use the least amount of resin as possible is all anyone seems to be interested in . it must be good !! Look!!! i saved all that resin !!! some where in there ,theres a big BUT:eek:
    Personally i dont think it is that good an idea !!!!
    I would like to see the test results of a set laminants made using differant percentages of resin, From really sucked to the max to just a lighter suck to a good hand laminated panel done with peel ply and and or plastic sheet rolled well. !!
    The same unbiased tests need to be done on all the panels !! :confused:
     
  2. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    i think the vacuum infusion should be looked at as way to make a good laminate save on resin in a reasonable way and not suck suck but rather right amount not excess nor less
    what about R and S glass any comment on it
    i am working with csm and wr but want to change:cool:
     
  3. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    What is R and S glass ?? discribe please !
     
  4. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    owens corning armid fabrics
     
  5. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    the unspoken story of the infusion thing is the cutting and placment of all the laminant on a job at the begining of any video and series of pictures people are always wearing white overalls and theres a few seconds of footage and then it goes straight to the resin running up the lines and a resin front moving along and over shaped . Its all the stuff before that stage that the most important . placement of glass cutting an placement of cores . how close a fit does the core have to be what goes under it to alow 100% wet out , ovelaps of glass how do the stay where they are meant to be spray glues to hold materials in place location of bleeder materials and flow medium The pressing into place and making .cutting , and fitting of all the dry materials to stay where they should be !!,when you look at the amount of time involved in just doing all that work and you havent even go to the peel ply and the bag yet you could have had the boat almost completely built . Every one i have spoken to and places i been and watched theres twice as many people as what a ordinary laminating team would be !,instead of 3 or maybe 4 people theres two or three times that many !!. you may save on resin and have to spend heaps more on wages for all the extra staff to do the job .
    Has anyone done a spread sheet with a complete 100% break down of everything and compaired ordinary laminating to a complete infusion job ??
    Small things i dont have a problem with at all but big there to many if's for me !!
    I am sure some one is pulling the wool over most peoples eyes !! and the waste !!! all the plactic and peel ply and other materials hoses and elbows and tapes etc etc !! what happens if an overlap pulls away from where its meant to be when the suck really goes on and is short of not even overlaped at all ,Imediatly you have a great weak place that is buried under other glass and will never be seem till the boat breaks in that particular place .
    I would have to work in a place for 6 months that does infussion full time and has a system cemented in place and the bugs completely ironed out and had been doinginfusion for at least a couple of years . The inital learning stage is never going to be a curve its a shear brick wall to start off with .

    The guys i have working here cant even master simple vac bagging of Balsa !! Everytime there a panel to do have to be there to hold there hands ,even after every day for a week its still not really sinking in !!,Vacuum is a complete and total mystery !:confused:
     
  6. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    so what do you actually use ??
    where do you use??
    and why do you use what you use ??:confused:
     
  7. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    strange questions!
    csm 300-450 wr 300-600:cool:
     
  8. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member


    Some more strange questions!!
    Csm ,P matt or E matt ??
    Woven 300 is a skinning cover for wooden boats used in conjunction with epoxy resin !! even a 600 gram is pretty light and used in a hull is pretty dangerous specially the bottom !! any idea why ??
    Whats the differnace between P matt and E matt ??
    for the same weight are they the same to use or is one better than the other ???

    What sized boats you making??
    How fast do they go ?
    Out boards or inboards ??:
     
  9. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    i use e glass and several layers alternating with csm
    i build outboards speed up to 60 mph
    16-33ft
    what is important is total weight and thickness of layers in hull also i use hard pu closed cell high density on top of laminate for sound proof and flotation
    fiberglass stringers foam filled with same pu
    15 years never had problems:)
     
  10. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    :p here is a 23 i build 250hp outboard
     

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  11. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    i build trailers as well
     
  12. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Sorry for the strange questions im interested in what people in other counries do and how they make things . If you never had problems thats really good !!
    Once boats get up in speed the pounding and hitting waves etc can do lots damage .
    Fine glass within a glass layup can be like peel ply and shear apart quite easely also the placment within the lamininate stack can also be critical . Obviously you make a good job and thats the most important thing of all .

    I understand you wanting to get into infusion and i did to in the begining but have stayed out because of the lack of information and always seeing the good side never the bad .
    Starting in a small way doing small parts yes i can live with that and did just that for a while but would not venture into hulls!, best used in hulls i am not a believer .
    Decks ok as they are much harder to make and do take a lot of material and time !.They're a place where its nessasary to get weight out of a boat . getting into infusion gradually and carefully and learning as you go is the way for me .
    Theres new materials coming on the market all the time and its best to keep up with what happening .
    Best of luck for the future !! :D
     
  13. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    owens corning has S and R fabrics also adventex anyone worked withem in boatbuilding powerboats
    i was looking for someone who used carbon k12 and kevlar in power boat building to learn from about its benefits and its cons
    i build with 600 wr and i use 450 csm as bedding material fr the wr several layers of both depending on boat size and i use 300csm after gelcoat when it hardened and top all with closed cell high desity foam which is like wood
    now i am going to used my hulls to make ribs out of them
     
  14. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    i am going to used my hulls to make ribs out of them

    I worked for a inflatable boat company for a couple of years . word of warning the lay up you use in your standard hull may need to be changed slightly RIBS get a really hard time !! much much harder than a ordinary mono hull !!so be warned , they are also more prone to racking and twisting because the top sides and uper deck are missing more strain and pressure is thrown onto the floor inside the hull to hold it straight . make a really good strong yet semi flexable flange where the tube fits to the hull .Tube need to be bonded to the glass inside and outside with a hinge strip inside . tubes move specially if the get a little soft . To make a rib go you must get the tubes clear of the water to cut down on water drag and water surface friction 100 mm up is good . IF the boat is a little lighter it could be rocky at rest so you can make a flooding hull where the water flows inside to allow the hull to settle and sit on its tubes . when you take off the water goes out the big holes at the back so will need to 50mm air holes in the nose just below chine level . best of luck !!:D
     

  15. wadeed
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: egypt

    wadeed Junior Member

    i know i have to make both hull and floor as one strong unit that is why i am looking into the carbon and kevlar and r and s glass and advantex i hve in mind to inject hull cavities with the foam like boston whaler does
     
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