Infusion Plan

Groper - Man you are so right about infusing all developable panels up front LOL!!! Well I always did learn things the hard way!

But I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

I experimented doing some hand layup on a flat panel. I rolled out two layers of cloth 12 oz 45/45 and 0/90 as if I was getting ready to infuse. Then I poured the appropriate amount of resin over the whole panel.

The cloth wet out really quick, I did not have any problem spreading the resin and I am thinking I could have done it with 3 layers. Is there any reason I shouldn't do this? I only have six panels to go and I want to get it done lol!!!

I would still be rolling out some peel ply over the top (as I did in my test) as I do have to do some more infusing or hand taping etc...

Thanks!!

 

Theres one good reason to avoid doing that - you risk poor adhesion of the laminate to the foam core.

See, the foam core absorbs about 300grams of resin per square meter - which is filling the surface pores of the foam and ensures a high surface area for bonding. When you try to wet it out from above, the laminate doesnt allow much resin to pass into the surface of the foam, so you risk a weak bond and delamination problems down the road. The correct method is to thoroughly wetout the substrate surface first, then roll your layers onto it and keep wetting it out as you go.

 

Okay so first step would be to coat the substrate and then if one wanted, wet out from above. Seems like it will be just as easy to infuse since your doing both sides at once.

Have you ever heard of anyone using linoleum (vinyl flooring) as a mold surface? I was thinking I coul use that stuff over my ply table to avoid having seams

 

Ive never heard of anyone doing that...i guess it could work??? It would be hard to find a really smooth grade of linoleum wouldnt it? All the stuff ive seen has a texture to provide a non slip surface...

if i were to do my table all over again, i would make the table from MDF, then coat the entire table in resin, then fairing compound, sand it flat and then apply a hard resin surface to act like a tooling gelcoat - so basically build it like a flat mold. Melamine is not a good material for an infusion table... it works, but it scratches easily and then you loose vacuum integrity...

 

I found some smooth vinyl flooring, I will be the guinea pig.

I just did the console infusion ... I keep learning. Look at all those feed lines, I only opened the two feeds on the middle line and the resin was moving plenty fast so I didn't open any other lines. The resin travelled a good 2 feet up and down.

Well this is the last mucking about infusion I do, except maybe the back side of this damn thing, tomorrow the table gets built. I feel good knowing the resin travelled so far, I am going to start relaxing a bit.

One thing, I had to clamp off the lines and mix another batch because I got dangerously low. I didn't need more for the part but I needed that extra in the bucket. I think a bucket with a recess would be good.

 

wow... now thats overkill

 

Im an idiot!

The only consolation is that the resin flowed nicely with no racetracking and I didn't even suck any into my air hose. The bottom was MTI but the top was regular spiral wrap.

 

In the back of my mind is that infusion is good for the environment because it cuts down on emissions, but I don't think it does. Since most of that goes in the trash, it looks to be a tremendous waste of fossil fuel material. I might as well just dump quarts of oil on the street.

 

Yeah,

However I have done it all wrong. It would be much less waste using infusion cut core and a tool. Then you could eliminate the flow media and release film and a whole lot of the hoses.

 

Just has another MAD idea

Imagine if you had an acrylic sheet on both sides of the panel and you fed resin to the panel through perforations in the sheet. You could eliminate the flow media and hoses and get glossy side both sides (use peel ply only where you want)

There would be a grid of channels on the outside in those channels you would have your feed perfs. You only need a short hose to one of the channels. You could do it on both side and the acrylic would be reusable, just bend it and the epoxy would pop out. You would have to lay another sheet on top to get the seal on the channels but that should be pretty easy with some rubber grommeting.

To create the edge seal you just need to tabe a pice of plastic along the edge.

You get rid of the plastic bag, the flow medium and the hoses and you don't load your core with resin.

Edit: and I just was thinking more on it- you could stack them so you could do a bunch of panels both sides at same time!! Im gonna try it!

 

No Waste, No Hose Marks!!
The thinner sheet facing the laminate so you can clean the perf holes easier.



I would put the feed in the center of top and bottom and the outlet all the way around the perimeter.

If you were to stack them you would have to figure out a system but talk about a fast setup!!!! LOL

Somebody tell me why this wouldn't work before I call my CNC guy Monday LOL!!

 

So I just infused this panel one side with 3 layers of 12 oz, peel ply, release film and flow media.

I didn't even bother hooking up the outer feeds this time. The resin travelled quickly enough across the 22 in span in each direction.



This Gurit Prime 20 with the slow hardener - Once it's spread out will keep flowing for quite a while. I noticed that my connection to the MTI hose was not perfect and some resin got sucked into the trap. My vac hoses are sitting on the part at the edge.

Now I am going to build the table so I can start doing things the right way but I think infusing from out to (the way Peter stressed) would be better. I was scared the resin would not flow that far but I feel pretty comfortable that it could flow to 30" and probably a lot further.

However I think the exterior infusion channel idea is the best yet to be more environmentally friendly!

 

Your idea is moving further toward another method of making panels, platen pressing.

The aircraft industry already does this, however why not eliminate the infusion altogether and use pre preg reinforcements. - This is the solution the aircraft industry uses. They stack a heap of panels on top of one another, seperated by a thin sheet of metal, so maybe a stack of 10 panels. Then the whole stack gets clamped together in a hydraulic press while its heated and the pre preg cures. You could use a mechanical press instead, or the vacuum press like you described. Then build an insulated box that lowers over the top and pump in hot air to make an oven, or run hot water through each platen in the press to heat it that way.

In any case, it requires a large investment in tooling and your panel size is restricted by the size of the tooling you build. Building an infusion table is relatively cheap to build a large area table so you reduce the number of joins needed to build the boat.

Your idea;

why use perforated acrylic sheets and not just perf film? The holes will take forever to clean out after infusion.

Why not just use infusion grid cut foam core, and have a single feed channel in your top sheet to let the resin in, after its in there, the core infusion channels will distribute the resin... If the panel is not too big, you could perimeter feed and suck it toward a single hole in the dead center of the panel where the vacuum line is, easy job to grind off a single blob in a huge panel...

The distance your resin will flow is mainly dependant on its viscosity and the permeability of the laminate stack. Infusion cut cores flow quite some distance as the channels allow very low permeability pathways, ive heard upto 8 feet or more is possible. This means very few feeds.

I think your looking for ways to do it with your plain foam... can you not take it back to the supplier and ask if they will credit you so you can swap it for infusion grid and perforated foam instead?

 

Your right, this will all be solved when I get the right core, just irks me to see all that plastic being used, hoses, flow media and release media, all that is history with the right core!

I have the hole pattern that I got from the Fram build. I guess I can stack and drill them myself pretty quickly, at least that will let me shoot both sides at once and eliminate the flow and perf media on one side.

The table is going to be a great help though, I should be able to infuse one panel every day... I hope but first I have to do the Transom, that is next!!

 

What are you going to use all these panels for?