I'm going to build my first boat(section)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Lemans, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    It's now 7 months after my last post on this forum. We moved to a other house with a 200m² workshop, not far from a nice yacht harbor so I believe it's time to do stupid tings as building my first boat. If you are familiar with my unconventional ideas, next design should not surprise you guy's. I'm going to call it the 'River Traveler'.
    The boat will be 10,5m long and 3,00m wide. It will be build up from 3 elements of my container transport boat design and a few 'add-ons' to provide a stable riverboat witch can carry a few off-road motorbikes. I chose ferro-cement as building material for the bow-element. An open-air kitchen (BBQ – etc...) will find his place in this bow along with the cooking LPG gas cylinders (and everything else witch can catch fire). The stern element (engine bay) is also made of ferro-cement.
    The middle section ( steering/sleeping cabin) is wood and the attached floor and second small hull are composites structures. Banisters in stainless steel.
    Performance – not important. Hit has to float tough …..

    My choice of building techniques is very simple – gaining experience with different materials.
    The parts are bolted together so transportation and assembling should be quick and easy.

    For the wooden central section I will trow in some techniques as a 'mini' heat recuperation and balanced ventilation to make the boat comfortable in colder regions or weather.
     

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  2. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    alan white Senior Member

    I guess the question is why design a structure that incorporates three sections that bolt together involving a great deal of complication and weight when an all steel hull would be cheaper, lighter, and stronger.
    Few professionals would likely take on such a challenging project due to the lack of this type of building having been done in the past.
    It sounds like you are inventing a lot of wheels at once, much like someone designing and building a seven wheeled car from polyethelene and titanium to compete in the Daytona 500.
    Yes, you'll gain experience.
     
  3. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Its a interesting idea but what a totall waste of time , the possabilities of it leaking and coming apart are beyond thinking about . why not just ferro for the hull or just fibreglass or just steel ?? 10 metres id borderline to make ferro hulls without the weight thing getting in the way !

    Im all for new and differant and if you do it keep us posted The joining of the two surfaces wood and concrete is a challenge on its own . one material wants to move (wood)and the other dosent (concrete) so you will need a gasket type seal of some discription to satisfy the two !! Have seen a lot of ferro made in the early days !!
    Here in china theres thousands of small ferro boats specially down around Shenzhen close to Hongkong area . They were filled with bricks and morter and towed into the shallows at hightide and set up in two rows nose to tail and then sunk and covered with fill and earth to form a stop bank then the salt water pumped out and filled with fresh water to grow things in !! there miles and miles if them .
    We have a 25 foot ferro boat tied up at the back of the factory, has been here for couple of years a family lives on it !! . :eek:
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Why would you consider foam cored panels on a boat with a ferro forward section? It's a bit like a making bicycle frame out of lead, but installing carbon handle bars isn't it?

    Maybe some research into general engineering principles might be in order here.
     
  5. DavidJ
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    DavidJ Senior Member

    It's more like the forks and the seat stay/chain stay on the bicycle are lead and the top tube and down tube are carbon. All bolted together.
     
  6. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    Alan,

    “much like someone designing and building a seven wheeled car from polyethelene and titanium to compete in the Daytona 500.”
    Already did that 15 years ago...well....not the Daytona 400, it was for 24hours in Belcar competition. I transformed a 1984 BMW into an 1998 E46 V8 and finished 3the in tourism class. It was actually build from recycled 15/20 years old material. (except the exterior body panels)
     

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  7. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    Guy's, I know this is not a rational approach but I want to build at least one section in ferro-cement.
    The bow is rather easy to build and I will verify if reality is comparable with what drawings are claiming in weight (and cost). All sections are closed so it's not needed to seal-off the sections.
    Really, if the bow comes out to heavy I always can use it as a garden kitchen....
    Not a problem if all goes wrong, I probably will laugh as hard as you guy's. Sometimes you just got to go for it no?
     
  8. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    If it makes you happy in experimenting-I say go for it.

    I can't work out your boat,looks like it was rendered by M.C Escher
     
  9. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    A reasonable assessment.
     
  10. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I understand wanting to do something different. The appeal of building a boat in a totally new way makes the project more exciting. But you are here asking questions. You must know that every discipline has a history of experimentation and yes, there are occasionally people who manage to improve on old ideas.
    Almost all new ideas are destined to fail though, which is to be expected. So many others have come before. So many of the really great ideas are "already taken".
    You have to be that much more clever, more inventive.
    Sometimes hubris can lead you to believe that your new ideas will be listened to more than they actually will be. This is true of most ideas but especially ones that are extremely different, as is this concept you want to build.
    Also, the ones you now ask questions of, while polite in answering your questions, nearly all believe that your idea is totally nuts. Having been in the "business" of thinking about and working with all manner of boats for decades and having spent thousands of hours puzzling out problems and trying every kind of method when those problems arise, they wonder why someone who came into the shop five minutes ago is capable of claiming that they are qualified to design and build something entirely unique that is possibly----- if not an improvement, a viable alternative to what else is out there.
    I admire people who think outside of the box. But I also realize that almost never do they succeed. For one thing, they often don't have much experience in the field they are working in. Another thing is in almost every case, they succeed only because they trip over some idea that comes to them by sheer luck. It succeeds and they come off appearing pretty brilliant.
    A few really are brilliant, but this is exceedingly rare. Certainly not often enough that it should lead one to think it's an easy road to travel, being a maverick.
    I would guess you are quite capable of managing a project such as you propose. I would also say that you might even finish the project one day and while your boat is 99% likely to be a design failure, it will probably not be in vain. It's what makes you YOU so who cares what all us guys think.
    Enjoy the project, should you go ahead with it. But it will be a difficult job getting help here because fwew people who could help will want to risk their time and expertise working on something they know darn well is going to fail according to their definitions.
     
  11. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I note that the OP is not looking for any help - just stating his aims.

    All the good advice in the world is wasted on a "non-rational approach", but at least its recorded here to be an example to others.

    I wish I was rich enough in money and time to just build any crazy idea that came into my head. As the OP says - " it's time to do stupid tings", as Forrest says "stupid is a stupid does"

    The 'concrete submarine' is still viewable from space, as it lies rusting and collapsing in the naval dockyards.
     
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I think you got the right attitude. It is OK to go and do something your way, whether it is the "approved way" or not. What I like about you is that you are ready to laugh it turns to be a total disaster. Go for it and keep us posted. All the good luck to you.
     
  13. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'll be curious about the interfaces between differing materials, particularly in regard to their widely different physical attributes. Concrete hulls have been done countless times, but one of the keys to success in this medium, is a continuous layup of the hull shell. Anything less, just leaks and connections are at best tenuous. Differing expansion and contraction rates will force serious engineering issues to say the least.

    Have you any thoughts on these concerns?
     
  14. Lemans
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    Lemans Lemans

    Alan,
    “I understand wanting to do something different.”
    It's not just wanting to do 'something different', I believe – and this counts for any domain – that you will always have people who look at things from an other point of view or have other demands.
    I post on this site because it's his purpose to link car/wing/boat/any-nuts as soon as they share the dream of building a boat. Winners or losers, it does not matter, a nuts idea today may lead to a brilliant design tomorrow.


    “But you are here asking questions”.

    About using the different building materials?-yes. I know my way in steel and composites but it ends there. As for the design, it's a river boat. (or 'moving campsite) If the water stays out and it floats I'll be OK no?

    “Sometimes hubris can lead you to believe that your new ideas will be listened to more than they actually will be. This is true of most ideas but especially ones that are extremely different, as is this concept you want to build.”
    I'm not looking for an audience. If this is a general impression, sorry...

    “For one thing, they often don't have much experience in the field they are working in”
    In my professional career I solved problems just because I had no experience in the field.
    Tunnel vision provided by education, it exist.

    “Enjoy the project, should you go ahead with it. But it will be a difficult job getting help here because few people who could help will want to risk their time and expertise working on something they know darn well is going to fail according to their definitions.”
    Thanks for the good advice and warnings, I still like to document my silly journey on this forum and let's see where it ends.
     

  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I like the design concept. The boat is not symmetric so it will be great for alonside the canal , and three part construction........obviously form and function design considerations.

    the lines are elegant. Don't know much about ferrocement. Lightweight composite foam glass might be better...and more expensive.

    Oh and you might add some kinda tabernacled mast and boom to use as a crane for lifting gear on and off the boat and that doubles as a Boom tent cockpit rain cover.
     
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