I want to share these plans.

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Boreas, Jan 15, 2007.

?

What's your opinion about sharing boat plans?

Poll closed Mar 16, 2007.
  1. Great!!! Terrific!!!. I'd love it!.

    8 vote(s)
    29.6%
  2. I don't care.

    4 vote(s)
    14.8%
  3. I wouldn't do it.

    15 vote(s)
    55.6%
  1. Boreas
    Joined: Nov 2006
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    Location: University Student

    Boreas Junior Member

    I have no intention to take the credit for these plans. I took them

    from Howard I Chapelle's book "Boatbuilding". In there you can find

    some other plans of very nice looking boats suitable for amateur

    building.

    Hope you share other plans you may find on books or magazines. It can

    even help to promote the book or mag they are published on.

    If you know of some other plan sets in these or other forum, please

    tell me.

    Thanks.

    <note: images removed from this post based on subsequent posts in this thread; we want to be careful that any plans posted do not violate any designer's, author's, or publisher's copyrights.>
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    Who owns the rights to the design?
    If it's not you, and it's not public domain, then posting plans is a violation of copyright. I'm all in favour of the free sharing of information, in general, but the only person entitled to make the decision to release material to the public domain is the person who came up with that material in the first place. If those plans come with a book, you need to buy the book to have the rights to use them. It is illegal and disrespectful to post someone else's work to the public domain without their authorization.
    Do you have authorization from the owner of that design to publish it here?
     
  3. Robert Gainer
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Location: New York

    Robert Gainer Designer/Builder

    That plan is one from the Smithsonian's collection of plans, maintained by the History of Technology Division of the National Museum of American History. They sell copies at a very reasonable price and it would be both safer and more polite to buy a set instead of using a photocopy. I think there is no copyright on plans held by the Smithsonian but I think the book you copied from does have a copyright held by W.W. Norton, the original publisher.
    All the best,
    Robert Gainer
     
  4. siolle
    Joined: Jan 2007
    Posts: 3
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    Location: Sweden

    siolle "Hobbyist"

    I can agree with marshmat and Robert but I have two questions regarding this.
    1. Is a copyright valid forever, or is it like the music buisness, something like 50 years after the rightholders death. In theory, would it be legal to build a 1850 replica after a copied drawing?
    2. What aould be the legal consequece if you build a boat after someones drawings without paying a royalty? Is it legal to create and build a "replica" built on limited information like a line drawing found on internet?

    Are designers today exposed to the same problem as the "problem of illegal downloading" as the music or film industry?

    Regards Olle
     
  5. Boreas
    Joined: Nov 2006
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    Location: University Student

    Boreas Junior Member

    primary task or the Smithsonian Institution was the "increase and diffusion"

    of knowledge . Therefore there is something I do not understand: Robert

    says that the History of Technology Division of the National Museum of

    American History sell copies at a reasonable price but how can they sell

    something they don't own the copiright. There is a interest conflict. No

    doubt.

    Hope to learn something more if somebody can answer the cuestions

    stated
    by siolle (previous post) especially about the second one because it is very

    difficult to distinguish the line between inspiration and coping. As an

    example I may use literature. If you write a novel you need

    documentation, so you start reading books. At the end you have your

    own book based on the ideas you got from the previos reading. Moreover,

    most designers, no matter the fild, learn from other designers errors and try

    to avoid them in order to make better their own work, but isn't that using

    the knowledge or experience of others as well?

    I had almost forgotten this but I'd like to know what did you do after

    seeing these plans. Did you just close the window? or prefered to "save

    as"?
     
  6. Boreas
    Joined: Nov 2006
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    Location: University Student

    Boreas Junior Member

    The previous is wrong, is not complete.

    Ok, Matt. I shouldn't have posted these plans. They ain't public domain
    and I had no idea who may own the copyright. It's just that I bought the
    book and I think it would be a great way to promote it to the potential
    readership. I have no authorization, but I had no intention to cause any
    problem to anyone either.

    I don't know if the Smithsonian Institution has a copyright, but I don't
    think they do since it is established as a trust instrumentality by act
    of Congress, and it is functionally and legally a body of the federal
    government. The Smithsonian Institution is an educational and research
    institute and associated museum complex, administered and funded by a

    request to the United States by the British scientist James Smithson. The
    primary task or the Smithsonian Institution was the "increase and diffusion"

    of knowledge . Therefore there is something I do not understand: Robert

    says that the History of Technology Division of the National Museum of

    American History sell copies at a reasonable price but how can they sell

    something they don't own the copiright. There is a interest conflict. No

    doubt.

    Hope to learn something more if somebody can answer the cuestions

    stated
    by siolle (previous post) especially about the second one because it is very

    difficult to distinguish the line between inspiration and coping. As an

    example I may use literature. If you write a novel you need

    documentation, so you start reading books. At the end you have your

    own book based on the ideas you got from the previos reading. Moreover,

    most designers, no matter the fild, learn from other designers errors and try

    to avoid them in order to make better their own work, but isn't that using

    the knowledge or experience of others as well?

    I had almost forgotten this but I'd like to know what did you do after

    seeing these plans. Did you just close the window? or prefered to "save

    as"?
     
  7. Robert Gainer
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 142
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 44
    Location: New York

    Robert Gainer Designer/Builder

    Don’t you think they should charge the cost of reproduction and mailing so the general public isn’t paying for your hobby?
    All the best,
    Robert Gainer
     
  8. Gilbert
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 525
    Likes: 5, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 28
    Location: Cathlamet, WA

    Gilbert Senior Member

    Where is the proof that Chapelle got permission to draw those lines etc. from the person who built it or designed it?
     
  9. Robert Gainer
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 142
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 44
    Location: New York

    Robert Gainer Designer/Builder

    He didn’t get permission but instead he snuck around in the middle of a moonless night and stole them.

    If it’s of interest to you read the notes that go with the source material for the drawings. It contains the known background and written interviews with the owner and other interested parties. In fact there is a published book that details how to document historic boats and what paperwork needs to be prepared and also covers the necessary permissions. This work is usually paid for by a grant from someone and the paperwork to document both the boat and the use of the money is beyond belief.
    Been there done that,
    Robert Gainer
     
  10. siolle
    Joined: Jan 2007
    Posts: 3
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    Location: Sweden

    siolle "Hobbyist"

    Maybe my questions was not so well formulated, I´m sorry for that, it was not my intention to question the right to legal property, more to get feedback if the "digital comunity" has created new problems. Maybe many "hobbyists" dream of building their own design, but the more you learn, from pros that generosly sharing from their experience, the more you understand the complexity of a building project. When it´s time to start putting real money into our dream, we hopefully have realized that "best spent money" is to buy a design, with the support from someone that has the answer and can explain.

    I also think I, if and when it get serious, would be more proud of sailing a boat designed by "NN", than having my own name on a "look alike", my kids would for sure question the safety of my design......

    Again I´m sorry if my questions could be read as being against legal rights, it was not my intetntion
    Best Regards
    Olle
     
  11. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Having met and discussed boat design at length with the very man that drew those plans I can assure you he didn't sneak around, pulling lines from vessels, by flashlight probably, in the middle of the night.

    His process was quite simple, to preserve the lines of types that would soon become extinct (his assumption, usually quite accurately so). He had an incredible desire to keep marine history (particularly American) remembered. It was also his hope, that his drawings (generally, not a complete plan set, but enough for an experienced builder or designer, needing reference material) would continue to foster recreations, evolutions of the type, restorations and reproductions.

    I met him at the end of his life, when he wished he had more time to catalog the craft he felt he missed, but was no longer the man able to perform this task. He was a unique work of art, a true artist, historian, fine draftsman, builder and yacht designer. He took liberties, at times, a lot of heat over the USS Constellation (he was right after all, long before anyone would admit it publicly) was an opinionated, stubborn and grouchy individual, but I loved him, just because he wouldn't conform, if for no other reason (it was the late 60's and non-conformity was a thing for me at the time). He thought I was a brash young pup, that needed a good *** whipping, though he liked my sailing skills, particularly against the blue bloods.

    Buy the plans Boreas, they're very inexpensive and he'd loved the idea they were doing what he hoped it would, spark interest in a type long gone.
     
  12. Robert Gainer
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Location: New York

    Robert Gainer Designer/Builder

    Par,
    I said, “He didn’t get permission but instead he snuck around in the middle of a moonless night and stole them.” and I thought it was extreme enough that nobody would take it seriously. I guess I was wrong and at least one person took it seriously.
    Sorry Par, and all the best,
    Robert Gainer
     
  13. Gilbert
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 525
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    Location: Cathlamet, WA

    Gilbert Senior Member

    The point I tried to make was that Chapelle likely had no permission from the designer or the builder to make those drawings in most cases. Does the owner of a boat have authority to grant Chapelle permission to copy the work of a builder or designer and put it in the public domain?
     
  14. Robert Gainer
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 142
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    Location: New York

    Robert Gainer Designer/Builder

    I really don’t know anything about copyright law but I would think you don’t have a problem for two reasons. First, the fair use doctrine lets you copy things for research or personal use. Second, a copyright is dated and doesn’t run forever and he dealt with older boats where the builder/designer is likely dead. I might also add that some things aren’t copyrighted and old boats aren’t likely to have been copyrighted at all.
    All the best,
    Robert Gainer
     

  15. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    It's a complicated question with no simple answers.
    If the designer is alive, of course you have to ask.
    If the design office is still in business or the boat is still in production, you have to ask.
    Otherwise?
    It's a legal and ethical question.
    Drawings and measurements of old boats built by tradition (by "the eye", measurements on a stick etc). Can that be compared to writing down the lyrics and arrangement of old folk songs? People that work hard to document old designs before they vanish are normally paid by museums. So it make sense to buy plans from the museum, even if it's just for the wall in your workshop.
     
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