Hybrid system for Sunreef 82 needed

Wow, the vitriol really came out there.... :s

A large part of the problem, ReGen, is that we routinely (about once every week or two) get a thread on "can I cobble together a hybrid drive out of portable generators and golf cart motors so that I can save gas and money?". Quite often, the hybrid promoter won't even bother to calculate what the propulsion and house loads actually are in various operating conditions; as I'm sure you're aware, D-E hybrids can be very useful if the house loads are comparable to propulsion, and don't tend to offer much benefit to a vessel with low house loads and a narrow range of cruise speeds. If the engineering judgement clearly isn't present, the obvious answer in many cases is "no, stick with what works".

A properly engineered hybrid drive system, designed by competent engineers with a thorough knowledge of the boat in question, is of course a very different animal. Given the rapidly increasing house loads seen in modern powerboats, and the tendency to spend less and less time at high speed as fuel gets more expensive, we may start seeing a few more cases where systems like yours could make engineering sense. Whether they make economic sense depends on the cost premium over the conventional "gold standard" of a moderately rated diesel with a deep reduction gear and efficient controllable-pitch prop. This is something that, for now, needs to be determined on a case-by-case basis with all the engineering and pricing facts in hand.

 

We will post video evidence of our testing in the future. We get our fuel consumption data from the Volvo can bus. Right now we are working on optimizing the system, including fuel maps, battery characteristics, propellers, etc.

 

Seeing proof is whole lot different than some type written words.

FEYS gave up on it, I emailed Siemens this spring and they told me they will not ready for production for personal yachts for some time (despite being in the news for 6 years), Nordhavn was to build a DE trawler but cancelled it,and I have not seen any side by side PROOF of it working wonderfully.

Show us.

BTW I spent 30 seconds on google and found this,re GB 42:
http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/ByngBoat.htm

"Our boat burns about 2.1 gph at 7.5 knots and 5.6 gph at 9 knots"

That's 3.6 nmpg or almost 2200 nm range (600 gals) at 7.5 knots...I wonder what the range would jump to at 7 knots..

 

Well alrighty then,now you have no excuses.

If you have the bus showing fuel consumption.....throw a GPS beside it,grab a camcorder and let's see it in action...hold every speed for at least 30 seconds and show us.

Waiting......

 

Siemens builds these system since years. The recent generation is made in collaboration with ZF and Volkswagen.
Beneteau installs it already in their sailing boats (at extra cost of course).

Nordhavn HAS built one boat with a Siemens system about 3 years ago, never did a second one.

But sure our market "leader" here will perform better than these amateurs.

Regards
Richard

 

We certainly understand that there is a lot of misinformation and hype in the market. We have been involved in electric propulsion for almost 10 years and are quite familiar with the failures and mis-perceptions. ReGen Nautic offers a well-engineered product that is SAFE and meets the many and varied demands of the marine environment and market.

We are of the opinion that horsepower is horsepower and when you need it, you must have the capacity on-board. We have seen many failures and unhappy customers (Lagoon 420 come to mind?) as a result of motors that were too small, but promised to be adequate because "it is electric".

The benefit of a hybrid system is a result of ALWAYS running the diesel at it's most efficient point. With battery technology today, there is only a small penalty for storing energy, which is much less of a penalty then running a diesel at an inefficient rpm and load. Think of the efficiency benefit you get by running your generator for 20 minutes every hour at it's most efficient point compared to running a diesel continuously at a very inefficient point. We do believe that the new CRI engines are very efficient and can come close to the efficiency of a well designed hybrid system IF it is always running at it's most efficient range (which is wider for modern CRI engines). However, when you add houseloads into the equation and you add efficient energy storage and efficient energy generation, you start to really get the benefit of a hybrid system. Not to mention the quality of life increase you gain from not having to run a generator 24 hours a day. And this is only for motorboats. When you talk about sailboats with the ability to generate electricity from the wind and use little or no fuel on a long passage, then the game changes.

There are many other benefits as well. Some you can quantify, like reduced maintenance and extended equipment life, as well as some that you cannot quantify, like being clean and doing your part to protect (or not harm) the environment.

Yes, new technology can be expensive. But, the benefits and buy decision are based on many factors. ReGen offers simple systems with just a motor and battery bank, to very extensive systems with parallel hybrid or serial hybrid configurations with the latest energy storage device (that may seem expensive initially, but may be cheaper over the life of the device compared to traditional batteries).

Another benefit that should not be overlooked is the ability to plug in new technology when it becomes available. I know that is difficult for some people to grasp, but technology changes and keeps getting better. There are early adopters that are willing to pay a premium to have the newest and best technology, but they are few. But, it is important that the market has those people, as that is the only way that technology will advance and the rest of us pragmatist will gain the benefit later. We see the hybrid marine market as getting to a point that is accessible to the mass market. Hopefully, this forum is for the sharing of the advancement of technology and we can all benefit.

 

Richard,the last I heard about 3 years ago Nordhavn did indeed get started on one,but then backed the owner out of it.

And yes,as we've discussed before,sailboats can regen some power and Siemens is involved with that... but not for a power boat.


In the meantime,I am going crabbing while waiting for that video showing gph and GPS speed.

 

Too many bold claims and assumptions Buddy.

....said the fancy gimmicks, dreams and sales drivel departement!

Don´t come with such nonsense as you dished out in the former statement:

No it does not compromise top speed having a setup with similar weight. It does compromise cruising speed, which is more important and hurts more!
At three knots I guess, the GB would have trans Pac range with the Cats!

Any facts?

No no, they did build it and as far as I know it is still installed, but the owner unhappy.

Regards
Richard

 

I think he wants 500kW for 4 hours - 2,000 kWh of storage. Tesla Motors make a high performance battery pack which could be used. You would need 37 of them, but it would still 'only' weigh 16 tons.

They would cost $1.3m, (retail - you should get a discount), and last about 5 years.

 

It would be good if the contributors to this forum did some homework before making bold statements. Like... how much power is needed to move this boat at cruise speed? And, how much does one kw-hour of Li ion batteries weigh? And, what is the efficiency of a charge and discharge cycle of a Li ion battery or other battery? And, how much does one kw-hour of Li ion batteries cost and what is the life cycles at different DOD? And, what are the load characteristics of yachts, say above 40 feet (power and sail)? And, how are maintenance schedules determined? And, how many boats has Siemen's done and what has happened to them?

We certainly do not have all the answers, but we know when we do not have answers and we seek the truth. As I said before, we will gladly have an intelligent discussion with anyone and add credible information to this forum, but refuse to get dragged into a senseless, uninformed and opinionated diatribe.

 

The power required was given in the original post (2x320hp).

The weight and life-cycle of Li ion batteries is available from the manufacturers' websites.

 

It would be good if the person claiming success in a DE setup would simply post video showing proof of GPH and speed and showing an improvement...instead of skirting the issue.

You say u have the working boat and system,claim that it gets crazy mpg BUT yet you can't seem to get a gps and camcorder together at the same time...and won't post a video until everything is fine tuned.

Show us.

 

As the "leader" you don´t have the answers?

You may find the recent issue of ProBoat enlightening.

http://proboat.imirus.com/Mpowered/imirus.jsp?volume=pbb10&issue=6&page=1

And Siemens did many more installations of Diesel Electric and Hybrid propulsion by so far, than you might ever do.
No no Mr ReGen, you have not done your homework sufficiently.

 

Just for your info, I work at ReGen Nautic and am reporting on what I saw on the demo run the other night. The engineers are fine tuning the system and the marketing department is planning a launch, probably early part of 2011. There are certain things that I cannot discuss, as I am bound by non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements. Like I said in a prior post, we do not know all the answers... but we are working on a solution that works. If participants of this forum want to kill the messenger, then so be it. Like I also said, you have the right to your opinions and I honor that.

What I can tell you is we do have a working system on a Grand Banks 42 in the water and running up and down the New River in Ft Lauderdale and out to sea. I actual saw these numbers I reported. If any of you want to take a trip to Ft Lauderdale and get on the boat and experience it for yourself, let me know and I will ask the President of the company to schedule a time to get you on the boat. Of course, you would need to sign an NDA, but I am sure you understand.

We are very active in competitor intel and are quite aware of the ProBoat article by Nigel. We are intimately aware of all of the yacht systems that Siemens has done and the number of them that failed and were removed. We are willing to answer questions and assist this forum with information that we are aware of. Hopefully, all that view this forum can gain valuable information and are able to make educated decisions. We will remain productive and not sink to responding to the hostilities in this forum.

 

Well I for one am not going to spend $1500 on a trip to see a Grand Banks that gets the same mileage as a diesel one
RE my post #18....and NOT running down a river.

Camcorder + GPS+ Different speeds + Bus showing GPH + Youtube= information.