Hybrid Electric Propulsion for Boats, Diesel-Electric, etc

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by brian eiland, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. RayThackeray
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    RayThackeray Senior Member

    Nope, not end of story at all (depending on application) - we need that ballast anyway, whether it's battery or lead makes little difference. This system will work just fine to get maybe 4 knots ion a displacement cruiser...

     
  2. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    That's great! Ignoring any current,with a 15mph headwind and 3' waves?

    What distance in calm flat water and what cost/how many tons of batteries?
     
  3. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    IIRC, when I looked at what I could do with a good sized box keel using NACA 65 and 66 series foils holding eight to ten golf cart batteries, I found that the best density I could achieve was about 2.05 times sea water. Using a thick lead liner and lead dividers I could get it up to about 2.3. I had a tiny sump for a bilge pump and some shafting space, but it was pretty densely packed. Cruisers don't need or want a particularly low CG, but a SG of only 2.1 or so would be a dog to work with unless it's quite a big boat. There is a huge difference between batteries and lead. Batteries are similar to sand bags, but less convenient to pack.
     
  4. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Although this thread says hybrid due to the fact we dont go downhill very often we will still end up with many diesel electric boats where the huge waste we have had for years with a main engine and a gen set in a boat when you only normally need the power of one of these for either propulsion or house power or a combination of the two.
    Wait till the EPA mandates gen sets to be variable speed to reduce the total pollution ( my prediction) then they will go to DC maybe?
     
  5. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "the combination of factors makes electric only interesting or feasible in very small boats (row boat) or specialty applications where things like reduced noise are more important that financial/efficiency matters."

    One great use for electric motors/propulsion seems to be to power a condom dinghy so the ladies can get ashore , with out messing with an outboard or oars.

    "Although this thread says hybrid due to the fact we dont go downhill very often we will still end up with many diesel electric boats where the huge waste we have had for years with a main engine and a gen set in a boat when you only normally need the power of one of these for either propulsion or house power or a combination of the two"

    Almost all the claimed "inefficiency" of diesel power are solved with an off the shelf CPP and a EGT gauge .

    A vairable speed noisemaker with a 24V 300A (bus alternator) will charge a large house bank or operate 2 air cond. with a good 4000W inverter with good efficiency.

    FF
     
  6. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo 2014 - 24, 25, 26 June 2014 - Amsterdam, Netherlands

    From the publisher of Electric & Hybrid Marine Technology International

    Discover the future of marine propulsion!

    The conference of the year!

    Featuring more than 50 of the world's leading experts on the very latest and next-generation electric and hybrid marine propulsion technologies, components and solutions.

    Conference programme and content put together by Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo consultants Oskar Levander - Rolls-Royce Marine, Professor John Carlton - City University, Michael Maughan - General Atomics, Dirk Spiers - ATC New Technologies, and Graeme Hawksley - Hybrid Marine Ltd!

    Technical presentations and open discussions will explore the latest technologies and opportunities for expanding electric and hybrid propulsion technology and other onboard systems. Perspectives on economic drivers, case studies of specialised vessels, developments in batteries and energy storage, onboard integration and vessel design as well as the impact of alternative fuels will be discussed!

    PLUS: Entrance to the exhibition is free!
    More than 100 exhibitors are expected at Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo, showcasing the latest battery technology, electric motors, hybrid and electric propulsion systems, fuel cell technology, LNG/hybrid systems and electrical systems.
     
  7. masrapido
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    masrapido Junior forever

    Brian,

    Ignoring the thread hijackers for a moment, a question. Is there a value in a hybrid diesel-electric, which is heavy (batteries, fuel and motor add significant weight in my opinion unnecessarily) when the wind and the sun are already there, are free and can be harvested simply.

    Yes, batteries and solar cells still represent certain weight, but less than batteries and motor. The main advantage is the autonomy at sea. There's always wind and/or sun to push a boat around. With hybrid set-up we depend on fuel supply, which is available only on land and it costs money.

    It is not an accident that the fastest boats are still the sailing boats. Remember the Earthrace? Beautiful boat, huge engines, and it took them 75 days to go around the world. With all due respect to the good will and a good idea/intentions behind the concept, my grandmother would have ran faster than that.

    I think that people are wasting their time inventing technical solutions for a problem that has been solved thousands of years ago. There's nothing cheaper than the wind, and the sun is an additional bonus. Looking for a solution that involves electricity, electronics, chemistry and internal combustion engine is a dead end street.
     
  8. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Just a very brief reply at the moment,...
    ....regrettably the by-far greatest percentage of the pleasure boating market is power boat oriented. And of course that is also true of the commercial boating/shipping.
     
  9. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    > Looking for a solution that involves electricity, electronics, chemistry and internal combustion engine is a dead end street.<

    Most tours of electric drive for pleasure boats are looking for FAME , or to sell a product.

    The use on some commercial boats actually does make sense.

    Caviat Emptor,
     
  10. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Greenline 40 Hybrid: from an article.

    "Back her down to 7.5 knots, and you’ll get close to 3nm per gallon."

    "With wind and current combined, we could feel the push against this very light 19,000lb"

    My 52' LOA, 40,000 lb,dry boat loaded with a couple tons of stuff aboard gets about 3.5nm per gallon at about 7 knots....

    If you are in the canals of Europe,or want to go 4 miles on electric power-great.
     
  11. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    Real World

    Well, my system weighs less than 8700 lbs...

    I own a 1968 Columbia 36, moored in Point Roberts WA, fitted with a 72VDC propulsion system.

    I normally steam at about 30 Amps, thus about 2kW. This yields 3-4 knots through the water. (Full throttle is about 100 Amps, but things get hot at that rate.)

    On batteries my range is about 10 nm, at 3-4 knots. My battery bank consists of 6 Trojan T-1275 batteries, each being 12V approx 120 Ah. Thus my total bank holds about 72V x 120 Ah = 8.6 kWh. This is about the same amount of useful propulsion as a half-gallon of diesel fuel. (Don't use that equivalency for anything precise - it depends on a number of assumptions about efficiencies. I only introduce it by way of stating that the amount of energy stored is very small compared to most fossil-fueled yachts.)

    The batteries serve as an energy accumulator - a fuel tank, if you will. I have three means for putting energy in to them for later use:

    6 x 50W photovoltaic array. Thus about 300W of PV. Compare the figures and you'll see that about a full day of sunshine will get me one hour of economical steaming.

    Second, when in port, is shore power. I can charge my batteries at a 30Amp rate, so I can press them full, from flat, in one day in a marina.

    Third, I do have a 3000W Honda generator. It has enough power to run the shore power chargers. So in fact I can steam at 30Amps forever, if I have the gasoline to do it. In real life I carry only one five-gallon tank of gasoline, so I have some 20 hours or so of steaming - call it 100 miles.

    This system has been installed since 2000. It has taken us (well, assisted in our sailing) from Vancouver to San Diego, plus several hundred miles on the Atlantic.

    I did, just yesterday, install the first of my third set of batteries - so I'm getting about 7 years out of set of batteries.

    Is the system the greatest thing since sliced bread? No. Is it the perfect system for all boats? No. Does it work for me? Yes.

    I wish you all fair winds.

    Chris McKesson
     
  12. Timothy
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    Timothy Senior Member

    I have replaced for about one tenth of the cost , a 2 cylinder diesel , its` 200 amp alternator and smart regulator,fuel system, filters, sea-cock, intake hose, exhaust system, and fuel tank with four cheap flexible Chinese solar panels , a cheap mpt controler and associated wiring. I no longer require the 15 gallons a month of fuel needed to run it, for an hour in the morning and again in the evening, to charge my batteries enough for my house loads.

    That is about 600 lbs of engine , equipment and diesel fuel replaced by less than 20 lbs of solar equipment. As an added bonus I don.t have to listen to, or maintain the diesel, or spend $150 a month on fuel running it. Additionally my agm batteries are fully charged almost daily and as a result should last longer .My last set could only be charged maybe to 80 percent with the alternator.
    .
    Just in case I kept my other 200 amp alternator on the main engine. It has a field disconnect. I have not needed it once in the last 2 seasons so I might get rid of it as well.

    I now have no doubt that solar generation of electricity is cheaper and lighter than diesel and I for one am confident that with advancing energy storage technology we will see electric propulsion replace the diesel in many cases. At first I see solar electric for purpose built sail boats, and then, who knows?
     
  13. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Hope you never get stuck in bad conditions anywhere near a shoreline....
     
  14. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    Actually, I _have_ had that happen

    Yep, been there, done that! In fact just the last time we were out we found ourselves caught on a rocky lee shore, when the westerlies turned easterly over night.

    Would having more power have made that easier to deal with? You bet! But there are other elements to seamanship that just power.

    All the best,

    Chris
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014

  15. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    For West Van Han

    Since I see that you are a powerboater, let me assure you that I respect power, too: I designed a yacht for Tom Gentry which was to be fitted with 20,000 horsepower of gas turbines. Unfortunately Tom was killed just before we were to commence construction.

    But don't get me wrong - I have nothing against lots of ponies!

    Chris McKesson
     
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