Hreko 1000

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by jperkovic, Apr 13, 2009.

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  1. jperkovic
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: croatia

    jperkovic innovation

    Hreco - Croatian sailboat

    HRECO


    LOA 998 cm + 220 cm dinghy (40’’)
    LWL 980 cm + 220 cm dinghy = 1200cm
    Beam 380 cm (12’’5’)
    Draft 60 cm (2’’) (body 30 cm) (1’’)
    Displacement 2.5 t without water ballast
    Diesel 200 L
    Water 200 L
    Height of mast above waterline 920 cm (30 ‘’)
    Main sails 2 x 13 m² = 26 m2
    Head sails 2 x 22 m2 = 44 m2
    Water/air dynamic ballast 2 x 750 Lit = 1500 Lit
    Wind & solar energy production 0,6+ 0,9 kW = 1,5 kW
    Sail surface close hauled 13 m²
    Sail surface beam reach >40 m²
    Sail surface running downwind >50 m²
    Diesel engine 20-30 kW
    Electric drive 5 kW



    I have been occupied with a project for some time now. It is my dreamboat that I plan to build when I retire in 4-5 years. The waters around my village (Ljubac near Zadar) in Croatia are shallow and there is plenty of sun and wind.

    An electric sailing boat may sound like a nuclear aircraft or even a lion-vegetarian. The problem is that storage of 1 “electrical” kWh is 100 times heavier than storage of 1 “diesel” kWh. This is not "a big problem with a simple solution", it is a difficult solution to a simple problem. Imagine 15 tons of fully charged batteries in place of 120L fuel in your 40 feet sailing boat.

    A number of factors were taken into account during making of the concept. Factors such as characteristic long islands that shield the Croatian Adriatic and prevailing winds of parallel directions to the coastline (NW-SE), ecological factors, development and anticipation of technology, a small crew, an older recreational sailor who likes to fish and to whom a deep keel and long mast is a nuisance etc, etc. This boat is not for competitions, although in ideal condition it can reach over 15 knots.

    This boat is a motor-ecosailer. It is light, environmentally friendly, fast, comfortable, easy to manage, safe & confident. This boat is still in development although 85% of the whole concept is defined. First I am going to do some tests and discuss it with anyone who can give me a good advice. Then I am going to build the prototype. Sponsors are more than welcome.

    I have made a 1m long model of the boat (ratio 1:10). I did it without real drawings, like a sculpture. It is quite specific and innovative sailing boat.
    In a nutshell the boat has a modern light weight and broad hull, should be made out of a composite material to be as light and strong as possible. The hull has two 5 m protruding ballast tanks that act as boat's keels, in shape similar to hulls of some catamarans. Each is positioned 160cm (5'3") left and right of the boat's axis and slope outwards at about 10°. The tanks (keels) have a combined volume of 1500L. Draft measures only 0.6m (2 feet) and it can be aground on dry land, on sand or mud. The hull is a specific combination of a monohull and a catamaran, and sea behaviour should be somewhere in between?. Complete evaluation will be possible only by testing the boat on sea. The first test in my bath shoved that waterline and trim are perfectly suited.

    Main feature of the boat is an "A" shaped mast (two masts in fact). It is made out of two lightly bended, slim profile masts that run from the left and right side and meet on top. Each mast is equipped with a 13m² full batten sail that is rolled in its respective boom. The masts are positioned 6m from the bow, so unlike by "normal" boats it is closer to stern.

    There are two forestays mounted on a single standard "Furlex" or "Profurl" roller. One jib on each fore stay makes two sheets of head sail. With side wind it makes a double-layer foresail and with back wind the jibs open like butterfly. With strong back wind (over 25kn) and empty ballast tanks the boat is supposed to glide. Due to a short mast (8 m) and low I : J ratio, the fore stay has very pronounced backward inclination. As a result, the vertical component of wind force lifts the front part of boat. Think about lifting power of one 40 m2 delta kite. Wind takes on speed as it passes between mainsails (a funnel effect) and fast sailing downwind becomes favourable. A tall and narrow gap is created as strong wind flows between two forestays. This and the long, parallel keels help the boat keep direction and maintain boat’s stability.

    The second characteristic of this boat is that it is environmentally friendly. There are 7 m² of solar panels and tree 350 W wind turbines on stern frame.. To optimize the uptake of sun energy, cabin sides with solar panels lean inwards to meet best possible angle of sun rays for Croatian coast (45th parallel). During downwind sailing the propellers can produce respectable amounts of electric energy.

    The boats third feature is that it is highly automated. Electric, boom stretching and reefing of main sails. There is an autopilot that can be programmed. For example when sailing with engine close to the wind (beating), one press of a button turns 15 degrees every 10 seconds and in one minute performs a tack. Meanwhile automatic switch of mainsails and water in ballast keels takes place.

    The mast can be lowered and raised in a matter of minutes allowing passage under bridges (e.g. in The Netherlands).
    An electrically powered dinghy (RIB) is a functional part of hull that slides in the stern like a bayonet. Its propeller turns for 360 degrees and can be used as side power in a harbour to improve manoeuvrability. It can serve as a gangway to the boat, while its floater can occasionally function as a stern bumper.
    On top of the narrow bow is a 1 m² (3,4"x3,4") platform with two anchors, one for sand and mud and one for mixed bottoms. Each is connected to an electric winch.

    There are four sources of energy. Most features on the boat are doubled to make it more reliable: two masts, forestays, backstays, roars, keels, mainsails, head sails, anchors, el. water pumps, el. anchor winches, etc. Of course, doubled systems means also higher production price.


    The Interior design is more conventional and classic, resembling that of Finngulf 37 (general arrangement 2). No luxury and heavy materials should be used inside.

    One of major shortcomings of this design is a 4 - 6 m² larger underwater hull surface when compared to a standard mono-hull of same length with classic central keel. Smooth surface and modern coating should minimize that minus.

    With this "genetic manipulation" I wanted to create something that has a David's body but a soul of Quasimodo. Some people might think its just the opposite.
     

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  2. jperkovic
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    jperkovic innovation

    zabac Hreko

    no questions, no objections, everything clear? I thought, the boat is also provocative.
     
  3. jperkovic
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    jperkovic innovation

    What is wrong with this concept ? Kind of catamaran-mono hull symbiosis. With technology today you can transfer 1500 lbs water from one to another keel in less then one minute. So you can use water of air to fill the buoys/keels. THIS IS NOT COMPETITION SAILING BOAT!!!
     

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  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    A minute is a awful long time to wait if you get caught in a bad way, and the water is still to leeward. You don't want to broach or accidentally jibe that puppy in heavy air.
     
  5. Guillermo
    Joined: Mar 2005
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    Location: Pontevedra, Spain

    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Joso,
    thanks for the PMs you sent to me.
    Sorry for the delay in answering.
    No doubt your concept it is provocative.
    In a first sight I find some disadvantages, in my opinion:
    - low and inefficient rig,
    - big wetted surface because of the very long bilge keels,
    - attached dinghy may cause dangerous scooping when in a following sea
    - highly compromised union of dinghy with hull

    Anyhow it's your dream. Keep it going.
    All the best.
     
  6. jperkovic
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    jperkovic innovation

    Hreco

    This boat is not designed for heavy sea, but if you come in certain conditions(45-55kn) only foresails should be used with reduced (more or less furled) surface.(think about delta kite effect). The booth booms( without main sails) should be used as spinnaker booms. Accidentally jibe will make no more problem then any other boat, even less because max surface of sail is only 13m2.
     
  7. jperkovic
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    jperkovic innovation

    Hreco

    Dear Guillermo,
    The rig is low, could be higher, let say 10 or 12 m bat steering wheel in Formula 1 is only one feet diameter and that is the point. Formula 1 you have no space
    and HRECO has no deep lead keel. You are wright that wind speed is higher 50 feet above water than 10 fits above water.
    By the way, relatively flat full batten sails are very efficient with (electro)motor sailing sharp in the wind. Because masts are bended ( preformed carbon fiber) sails ar less flat with
     
  8. jperkovic
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    jperkovic innovation

    low and inefficient rig

    ......with side of back wind.This boat is designed for older people that have enough time to wait for convenient wind, 80 % they sail with the wind.
    Wet surface is with this catamaran/mono hull hybrid bigger. It's about 4 m2 extra for that size of boat, but if you look at Discrete RYD-14-11 (see PAR's gallery) a huge underwater surface is "beautiful" and nobody see the problem.
    I see Dinghy just as functional part of boat and if connection between stern and dinghy strong enough is (let say force of 3 times total dinghy buoyancy= +/- 2400 kg) then is no problem. I see the connection es technical and no seaworthiness problem. Of course, dinghy mast never take water inside.
    Try to see this boat es concept, imagine there is no dinghy, only solid hull in place of dinghy. One classic rig, is not optimal for so mach green energy on board. The rig is part of concept, no spinnakers no genakers etc. This boat is not beautiful like colleague PAR's boats, but in my opinion, fast and light boat with low mast is safe when see becames to boil. greetings and thank you for objections. Maybe I should sent some sketch. Maybe is boat so strange because I did the boat first and now I am going to put the measures on the paper.
     
  9. jperkovic
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    jperkovic innovation

    lead (11.34  g·cm-3)

    There are no "massive, speed robbing shoal keels" on "hull pictured above".
    Think about angle of making picture. This is not boat sketch that makes effect that you are looking from infinity. The keels are not massive, there are exactly 2 x 750 Liters massive. Imagine 2 feet wide and 16 feet long, two "slices" cut from jumbo jet wing. The cross section of underwater plane is about four square feet, in very hydrodynamic form. If filled with air the boat hull will have about 10 cm less immersion.
    This is not boat, this is working model of one concept boat, that's why I put 18 cm ("6 feet tool") silly American wrestler. I picked this puppet in a toy store because only this was in "1:10" proportion like my model boat.
     
  10. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    Hi jperkovic,

    Considering also the other discussion of what appears to be this same boat

    It's an interesting concept, but the concept seems a bit disjointed at times. To use some examples:

    - Moving 700 litres of water ballast in under a minute would require a pump with 40,000 l/h capacity or more (think 10,000 gph). That is quite a substantial pump. A quick look at a few catalogues indicates that typical pool and pond pumps in this size draw 3 to 4 kW. And a minute is a very long time on the water- if the leeward bilge keel is dry, and the windward full of water, a sudden jibe would likely capsize the boat. And that shape will not self-right if it flips; even with a deep fin and lead bulb, hulls like that can have a hard time recovering from a capsize.

    - The vessel shown has a running surface that looks to be inspired by the big, broad-sterned ocean racing monohulls that are in vogue these days (Open 60, VO70, etc.) But it's apparently meant as a cruiser, not a racer. It has thick, low-aspect bilge keels that will incur a very large induced drag penalty. It does not look like the windward keel would clear the surface until 20 degrees of heel or more. This, coupled with the low-aspect rig, would seem to suggest a boat that will not be particularly comfortable or fast to windward.

    - The steering wheels. On a concept I'd usually not worry about this, but you asked... in short, the reason for the large wheel on many sailboats is not as a phallic symbol (the mast serves that purpose much better), but to provide the helmsman with enough leverage to keep the boat under control when he's getting blown backwards in a Force 8. With power assist, you could no doubt get away with smaller wheels in calm weather. But power anything always works perfectly in the calm- it's when things get nasty that a pump will fail, or a battery will get too low for the power assist to work.

    I think you're on an interesting track. And if you really want a monohull with shallow draught, water ballast can be a good way to go. I'd suggest, though, that a centreboard or lifting fin keel would likely result in a faster, more responsive and much safer boat than shifting ballast and large bilge keels. On the other hand, if you want speed and shallow draught without lead and steel, why not look at catamarans?
     
  11. jperkovic
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    jperkovic innovation

    Hreco

    Tthanks marshmat on your constructive objections.

    I do not want to push or entail 2tons lead all the time.(2 m3water!)and I do not want catamaran! I do not want more than two feet draft and I do not want mast longer than 10 m! And I want to use as much as possible clean energy.
    About pumps: There are two serial connected pumps each 12000 l/h (two inch pipes) . There is extra barrel with valve(5X40 cm tube cut) between ballast tanks that makes possible massive flow of ballast water to the “lower” bilge keel. Normally each bilge keel takes about 400 litre water. Water shift takes place if you take long leg on one side and windward sailing with this boat you do always with motor and one sail. Running means empty bilge keels, and with wind > 35 knots wind only foresails in the form of butterfly. Then you use booms as spinnaker booms. Because of long keels boat keeps good direction, and because this boat can not quickly change direction is absolutely not suitable as racing boat. I do not believe that this boat can so easy capsized, even if you do stupid things, because of ratio primary stability/sail area.
    Yes indeed this is not racing boat, this is "ecomotorsailer", I started with concept 6 years ago. It is amazing how long it takes to push "boat designers" to think little bit different that they are used on. I sound stupid to myself if I repeat: This is not racing boat, only because hull looks like modern racing boat. This form of hull has more stability then round or V hull, is more wide and I can better compose ballast tanks/ buoyancy's to such form of hull. That’s why I chose for such hull form. I also wrote: this is specific boat( up to 1,5 kW potentially green energy production!), for specific crew and sailing pattern( small crew that has lot of time, kind of living on the sea). It sounds arrogant but from my opinion, with such boat you can sail around the world. You have lot of energy available, and energy means also water, "A" masts rigging is ideal for running , and catamaran/ mono hull symbiosis is stable, light and compact. Most people have no "problem" if they see two masts (and two booms) in line( Jowl, Ketch, etc). But they can have big problem if they see "A" masts configuration.. The masts are made of carbon fibres, they are preformed ( bended inwards), and about 22 degrades rotated outside. This permanent masts curve keep ideal form of sail for every angle of sail & wind. As a rule boom makes movements only between 15-60 degrades left and right out of boat axis. This movements transform shape of sail, from flat close hauled (+/- 20 degree) to less flat beam rich (+/-45 degree)and more round with running (+/- 60degr) Not only sails transform the shape, bat also HRECO transform. That's what most "boat designers" do not want to understand.
    Close hauled( beating up to 30 degree.) is HRECO motorsailer with high performace mainsail. With tacking you always use motor( or electromotor). This means you do not have to perform the tack, sails and balastwater exchange quickly. If you do not use motor you are or masochist, or hypocrite or intractable. Millions and millions people use no sails at all, they have motorboat. With Beam Reach is this boat solid cruiser, and over Broad Reach and "performance cruiser" transform HRECO in real cruiser racer running downwind. Of course this is only symbolic transformation but this is good description of this concept boat. I can estimate from my experience, when I retire, I will have plenty of time and I will sail 60 % running or Broad Reach, 30% Beam Reach and 10 % beating with motorsailing.
    Boat has stability of hull form , and catamaran component. There is about 1000 kg “ballast“ on the bottom of boat , mostly under the waterline( 1200 Ah/12 V batteries, 200 l drink water, engine/generator, fuel tank , etc),. The hull should be made of composite about 1500 kg heavy. But the most important thing for boat stability is only 13m2 mainsail and 22m2 for sail with centre of gravity about 4 m above sea!!!
    If you compare POGO 40 racer with 2x 750 litres waterbalast, 120m2 sails and19 m mast. ( what kind of pump must they have ??? They must tack in few seconds as they compete, with 120m2 sails and 19 m mast. They mast not use motor!
    About steering wheels you have right. My comment was referred to people that overdraw. If they use balanced rudder it would be more easy and more space in cockpit .
    With 20 degrees heeling comes more than 1/3 of windward keel out of water!!!
    Dear sir, what is your opinion. Is it possible to make basic hull of this boat, strong and stiff enough in the range of 1500 kilograms and 50 000 dollars?
    I still believe that such boat with hull & rig concept can plane in certain condition . Maybe with some modification? One variant without bateries and other hevy equipment? I hope I will find solution before I go with pension . 9 kn theoretical speed is also not bad. J.Perkovic
     
  12. jperkovic
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    jperkovic innovation

    if this boat capsize, mast with sail on the "waterside" and 12 gallon "airtorpedo" on the top of masts ( see photo)prevent that boat goes updown.
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    All yachts are a convoluted set of compromises. I feel you've asked for too many across too wide a spectrum for this yacht to much more then a conversation piece at the local salver's yard.
     
  14. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    jperkovic,

    Please explain what holds the rigging up, from the pic it is not clear to me.
    Can we have a pic of the rig, deck up please?

    (note threads have been merged after this was posted)
     

  15. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Did he leave? What is/was his problem? I don't see the point of posting an interesting if controversial idea, asking for comment, then crapping on the people who do that.

    "American knows difference between water and air?"

    -probably; they also know ******** from baloney.

    "This boat is not designed for heavy sea"
    "with such boat you can sail around the world"

    -and Canadians can even recognize inconsistency.
     
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