High Performance MPX Foil/Self-righting Trimaran-The Test Model

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Gitana 17 Flying on the Most Advanced Trimaran Foiling System Ever:
    Gitana 17.jpg

    Fire Arrow Doing Exactly the Same Thing:
    MPX_Fire Arrow-3D SAILING-7-24-14 009 (3) - Copy.JPG
     
  2. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,402
    Likes: 193, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Happy New Year. It has been awhile. Good luck with the MPX. Better luck than the BSA had I hope.
     
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Hey, Hoyt-good to hear from you. Have a great new year! I've had lots of trouble but may get back to sailing later in the year. The good news is the big tri's using an almost identical foil system as Fire Arrow have proven how fast the system can be. I guess the engineering has got to catch up with the innovation-and I bet it will...... I've had excellent and informative conversations with the main designers of Gitana 17, Banque Pop and Macif which have been terrific.
    Hope all is well with you and your family!
    PS- I guess I'm a bit dense-what is "BSA"?
     
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    WOLF daughter of fire arrow
    Latest Update 1/30/19

    ==================
    WOLF specs(tentative) :
    LOA 14.8'
    Max Beam 16'
    CL ama hull to CL ama hull-14'
    Target weight 175-190lb
    SA-(mast length 24' all carbon wing mast)
    --upwind: 167 sq.ft
    --downwind: 267 sq.ft
    --max pressure before depowering/reefing: 1.79lb/sq.ft
    * NOTE-see bottom of this page for max pressure comparison with an F18.
    RM-max righting moment=4460ft.lb..

    ------------------------------------------------
    Advantages:
    1-Singlehander- Excellent upwind and downwind performance with 220lb crew. Minimum crew weight 120lb.
    2- Will foil in 5 knots of wind with 220lb crew .
    3-Carbon rotating wing mast, carbon cross arms and carbon foils.
    4-Retractable foils(from cockpit). Mainfoil retracts flush with bottom and tips are designed to not dig into sand. Rudder foil retracts above bottom. Ama foils retract above waterline when boat is level.
    5-Extremely comfortable sliding seat on each side. Allows crew to move 1.75' outboard very quickly.
    6-Uses the Fire Arrow Foil System(like Fire Arrow, Gitana 17, Banque Pop, Macif and Maserati)-- the same as the original system first used on the Test Model- except the larger boats use two rudder t-foils on each tack. WOLF has two UptiP ama foils-one used at a time-and one wand controlled mainfoil for very early takeoff and capable of substantial downforce- all working with a single rudder T-foil. Downforce can be virtually instantaneous adding RM in response to gusts.
    7-Foiling throughout the wind range -including very light air-the essence of 3D SAILING!
    8- Assy Spin/Screecher retracted under the front deck.
    9- Boat folds from max beam to trailerable width in about 4 minutes. No waterstays.
    10-Mid (wish)boom mainsheet so sheet is always in forward hand and extension tiller always in aft hand.
    11-Quickly self-draining cockpit-large scuppers with backflow flap.
    12- Planing ama hulls designed for incidental contact with water at speed and for inadvertent contact at slow speed.
    Adjustable angle of incidence of planing surface of each ama simultaneously. Angle of incidence of ama foil has to be changed when this is done. Planing surface starts at +4 degrees.
    Uses Two-Stage Amas-see attachments below. They consist of a planing ama hull(Stage One) coupled to a "curved piece"(Stage Two) that provides extra buoyancy in the event of a knockdown. Curved piece facilitates high dihedral crossarms which keep the crossarms clear of the water.
    13-Planing main hull.
    14- Aerodynamic surfaces added to forward and aft crossarms. Adjustable flaps added on rear cross each side. Jib foot and forward part of main foot to be sealed to deck.
    15- Adjustable crossarm dihedral for prototype to facilitate testing.
    [​IMG]

    -------
    ==================
    ---
    Memorable quote from JG Baker, Designer and Builder of the Monitor foiler in the 1950's:
    " The main need is to lower the wind velocities required for flying in order to increase the opportunities for high speed travel"

    ---VPLP on the daggerboard main foil:
    " On these big boats, when you ease a sail, it is a pain because it takes so long to grind it back in. But here you press a button and the angles of incidence change. And with the foil on the daggerboard you can use it to alter the flight according to the wind*. If it builds, rather than easing the sheet you increase the righting moment by increasing the angle and conversely, as it eases you can reduce it and let it fly more."
    * done 100% automatically on Fire Arrow/ WOLF with wand controlled main foil.


    ================
    ---
    Fire Arrow Foil System-first of its kind on any trimaran.
    Elements developed first by Fire Arrow include:
    1) the first trimaran in history to use UptiP ama foils,
    2) the first trimaran in history to use a single wand controlled main foil capable of downforce,
    3) the first trimaran in history to use Two Stage Amas.(see below for Two-Stage Ama pictures)
    ====================
    Note that ama is flying before main hull-note ama flight altitude:
    [​IMG]

    Now that main hull is flying and speed and load are significantly greater than in "A" above, note that ama flight altitude is the same! And that's due to the ama UptiP foil design:
    [​IMG]
    =======================

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  5. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,402
    Likes: 193, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    BSA was once Boy Scouts of America. It has changed a lot, even the name.
     
  6. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,402
    Likes: 193, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I was referring back to a post about sea scouts from 2013.
     
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I vaguely remember something like that-in an Everglades thread wasn't it?
     
  8. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,402
    Likes: 193, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I think it was in one of your threads.
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    [​IMG]
    ==========================

    Introducing WOLFMAN--- This guy is only 5'4" tall at the same scale as the boat but he is easy to get along with........

    ==========================

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    WOLF daughter of fire arrow----- Wolf makes it into the International Hydrofoil Society Newsletter, pgs 8-9.
    I also sent in an article about Blue Arrow-p7-but the editor got it confused with Fire Arrow! Oh, Well.......
    2019 JAN NEWSLETTER https://foils.org/news/2019-jan-newsletter/


    JOIN the International Hydrofoil Society FOR FREE!!!
     
  11. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Wolf daughter of fire arrow(UPDATE)
    A) I'm making a change to the ama foils on WOLF which will result in a bit less span while moving the center of lift outboard about 6". The foils will be more like the Fire Arrow ama foils. Compare the two foils below:


    [​IMG]

    Fire Arrow stb ama foil:
    [​IMG]

    B) Will also test various versions of what might become an automatic altitude controlled version of a T foil:

    WOLF daughter of fire arrow-- it may be possible to design a t-foil that has similar characteristics to those of an uptip foil: that is-automatically maintain the flight altitude of the hull it's attached to with no moving parts and the foil would not function like a surface piercing foil,in other words, little to no dependence on speed for altitude control. The advantages would be at least two: 1) to move the center of lift of the foil substantially outboard when used in a trimaran ama application,and 2) simplicity.
    Possible problem/complication: increasing lift for low speed takeoff: Changing AOI for low windspeed takeoff may not be possible with a flap, so changing(shifting) rake angle for low windspeed takeoff may be the only solution.
    Lee foil on a trimaran ama-potential shapes for testing:
    Latest shape--
    [​IMG]

    Earlier shape--
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Fire Arrow---- Shorter, Adjustable Wands for Mainfoil(UPDATE)--

    The system uses a small diameter stainless steel wire glued to the inside of the wand. The wand/paddle/wire assembly slides thru the inside of the wand mount. The wire is bent over and retained with velcro. To shorten the wand, the velcro is removed and the wand shortened up to 2 inches and retained with the velcro-shorter than that would probably not be required but it can go 2.5 inches shorter but then the wand tip is above the bottom of the hull at flap neutral. The wand is coated with cyano to make a tight fit in the wand mount.
    Function:
    The wand system controls the flight altitude of the main hull and the angle of heel(10 degrees) of the whole boat. Further, the wand controlled main foil working with the rudder t-foil controls the pitch of the whole boat and, simultaneously, the ride angle of the lee UptiP foil. The dual wands work like a single wand even with the boat heeled to 10 degrees +.
    One of the most critical functions of the wand system is to create downforce when the angle of heel exceeds 10 degrees. Downforce can substantially increase the righting moment of the boat and the wand system will allow the foil to respond to gusts almost instantaneously.
    =======================================
    Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use an adjustable mainfoil(capable of downforce) in combination with an UptiP ama foil and rudder T-foil. It is still(with WOLF) the only trimaran to have an automatically adjustable mainfoil-thanks to the wand system.The Mod 70 and Ultim tri's use a manually controlled electro-hydraulic system to change the AOI of the whole mainfoil on Maserati and to change the flap angle on all the Ultims:
    ---VPLP on the daggerboard main foil(for Gitana 17, Macif, Maserati[MOD70] and Banque Populaire and soon more tri's:
    " On these big boats, when you ease a sail, it is a pain because it takes so long to grind it back in. But here you press a button and the angles of incidence change. And with the foil on the daggerboard you can use it to alter the flight according to the wind*. If it builds, rather than easing the sheet you increase the righting moment by increasing the angle and conversely, as it eases you can reduce it and let it fly more."
    * done
    100% automatically on Fire Arrow/ WOLF with wand controlled main foil.



    • [​IMG]

    • [​IMG]

    • [​IMG]

      [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]

    • [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    X-FILES: a short while ago down at one of the places I have tested Fire Arrow and D4Z there was about an 8' long, very low slung ,black USV(unmanned surface vessel) with a green light on the bow(that changed to white) about 50' off shore moving slowly .On the beach were two guys in winter/rain gear standing near a tent with their hands in their pockets. The boat appeared to be under autonomous control since nobody was holding an RC transmitter. I didn't have time to talk to them but it sure was interesting............

    This exact beach very close to the Pineda Causeway on a very cloudy rainy day:
    2007-02-04 11.15.23.jpg
     
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    The post quoted below was written before any of the ULTIM tri's were sailing. At the time, I was excited that Maserati(thanks to Guillaume Verdier) was using a foil system almost the same as the Fire Arrow Foil System. The major differences were that Maserati had three rudder t-foils vs one for the Fire Arrow and used "L" foils mounted at an angle so that they would work like UptiP foils vs the unique UptiP foils on Fire Arrow.
    But I was knocked out when I learned that not only Gitana 17 but Macif and Banque Populaire would be using the basic Fire Arrow Foil System with their versions designed by Verdier and VPLP--just so very,very cool!!
    And just recently(see previous page, post 2845) I found out from Vincent Prevost that the Macif test boat(see picture below), based on a 24'Diam, was converted to not only use UptiP foils but an adjustable foil on the daggerboard like the others!
    Macif Test boat.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019

  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,232
    Likes: 263, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Fire Arrow Foiler / Foil System Testing and Development

    This is an update on the concept of a Two Stage Ama:
    --
    A while back I was thinking of a 15' version of the Fire Arrow and was troubled once again by calling such a crucial piece in the ama function and design a "curved piece". Then a light flashed on and I came up with a technically correct name for the ama + the "curved piece" : a "two-stage ama". The reason "two stage ama" works is because the curved piece actually is part of the ama though quite distinct from the ama hull. And in sailing, the buoyancy of the ama hull and of the curved piece affects the RM of the boat in two distinct stages: Stage 1- when the ama hull is immersed the RM is enhanced by the 6lb(about 280lb full size) of buoyancy of the " ama hull", Stage 2- when the "curved piece" is immersed the RM due to the immersion of the ama hull is doubled".
    So from now on this feature of the Fire Arrow will be called a Two Stage Ama. Interestingly, in the testing done so far even in the overpowered conditions of the second video the second stage of the ama(the curved piece) has not been submerged. This hasn't been tested yet but ,theoretically, the high dihedral crossarms coupled with the Two Stage Ama should allow self-righting from at least 90 degrees(if it ever gets that far).
    The 2nd stage of the ama(curved piece) is designed with about the same buoyancy as stage 1(the hull) and together they create fairly high static RM coupled with the over square beam and high dihedral crossarms. But it is stage 2 that determines the run angle of the planing ama surface and of the ama foil. I even considered making the junction between the two adjustable so the ride angle could be adjusted. The foils AOI(angle of incidence) is adjustable but the ride angle of the planing surface is not-at least on the Test Model. It could be adjustable on the full size version w/o a whole lot of trouble.(it may be on WOLF)
    But,again, whats really cool about the Fire Arrow concept is that sailing(foiling)- the main and rudder foil working together control the ride angle of the planing surface and the foil! In other words neither can pitch up or down on their own.
    -----
    Clearly, this Two Stage Ama Design offers a lot both Statically and Dynamically:
    1-Statically- the boat is sitting still and hit by a hand of God gust. It is theoretically possible that the boat could be knocked over with the mast horizontal but the two stage ama offers reserve buoyancy after the the ama hull itself is immersed and yet it is not enough to fly the main hull. It is enough, however, to right the boat.
    2-Dynamically-The ama hull has two levels of dynamic vertical force:
    a. first and foremost the ama lifting foil that works from very low speed on up,
    b. Second, and a sort of back up at speed, is the planing hull design of the ama. To start with on the Fire Arrow, the planing surface, only comes into contact with the surface at very low speed with the ama starting to fly before the main hull does. And when the boat is flying the ama performs the same function that the planing ama on Hydroptere does: reserve lift during incidental surface contact at speed.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.