High Performance MPX Foil/Self-righting Trimaran-The Test Model

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Great , Ian. From what I could tell it seemed that the flap might not come up enough? For what its worth: on the Rave,Osprey and F3 the flaps are set at 30 degrees down and 20 degrees up. The angle of incidence of the main foil(flap neutral) was +2.5 degrees and the rudder foil was set at zero degrees-all relative to the flight waterline(which was parallel to the static waterline after takeoff).
    The tension on the bungee/spring was greatest when the flap was up: water pressure on the wand keeps the flap down(vertical lift) but keeping it up for downforce requires tension from the bungee/spring to overcome water pressure on the wand......

    Original F3 wand set-up sketches. I used partial span flaps.Flaps attached to foils with thin mylar sheet molded in. Note how angle of rocker arm is such that effective tension on the wand increases as the bottom of the wand moves forward. F3 weighed 7+ pounds(56"LOA-72" Beam) , main foils carried 80% of the load, each main foil was 17 sq.in., foil loading was .188lb/sq.in at takeoff:

    click-
     

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  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    RC MOD 40(from MOD 70)

    Chris, on the German forum, just published this video of his scale mini40. Not a foiler(it could be!) but an example of excellent workmanship and design:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKC9ELqp3Mo
     
  4. PerthMini40man
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    PerthMini40man Senior Member

    Foiling Mini40

    Second sail, in much lighter winds. I have sorted out the port foil - the fixed part of the foil did not have any positive angle of attack, so I have rectified this and in fact the boat now foils more evenly on starboard tack than port tack. Late in the afternoon I also reduced the pull-down force from the T foil on the rudder and this helped a lot, with lift-off much more even when it gets up onto the foils. Proving very useful to be able to adjust the angle of the rudder shaft.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrArHjsw6NQ&feature=youtu.be
     

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  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Skyfall

    Ian, what is the boat weight and one main foil area? As a percentage, how much weight do the two mainfoils lift? Any numbers, regarding your design, will be interesting and appreciated...
    PS-there must be a story behind "Skyfall"?
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    CA Marchaj

    From Brian Eiland in another thread:

    AYRS regrets to have to announce that Prof C A (Tony) Marchaj died on 21st July this year aged 97.

    He is known for his many contributions to nautical science, not the least of which are “Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing" (1979), and "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor" (1986) the latter arising from his investigation into the 1977 loss of life in the Admirals Cup regatta.

    Men of his stature are not common, and are hard to replace when they leave us.

    With sorrow
    Simon Fishwick
    AYRS Editor

    ===============
    Mr. Marchaj was a tremendous inspiration to me and his books continue to inspire and teach.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    RC Trifoiler

    Model based on trifoiler -pretty fast. Published in "FOILERS" including plans! https://foils.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/le-foiler-artelio/
    The Hobie Trifoiler uses incidence controlled foils with altitude and RM controlled by dual independent "feelers" sticking out in front of the boat. This boat uses fixed surface piercing foils for simplicity-altitude controlled by speed. On the full size boat the "feelers" allow almost unlimited righting moment-on the model RM is limited.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=15&v=SuSYmrDYaxk


    Free Plan from Jean-Marie Clech-see last paragraph of Foilers! article for contact info:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Fire Arrow Foiling System Testing and Development

    Fire Arrow


    What I expect out of this test model:

    UPDATED( edited): 9/10/15 --. This post will be moved and/or updated as required. The idea is to allow anyone really interested to find all the pertinent info on the boat in one place.

    ================
    11/9/14--I'm going to describe what I know now after the first series of tests culminating in full foiling on July 24, 2014. These questions/expectations were first put forward by Magnus Clarke and though the boat hasn't sailed in heavy air yet there are some things that are known now. The original of this
    post is on page 88. When Dan and I have gotten more video including in relatively heavy air I will amend my responses today as required.


    ===============================================
    ===============================================
    These are some "questions" posed by Magnus on another forum(with a couple I have added). I think they represent a good idea in that it will allow me to summarize my expectations for this test model foiling trimaran before I sail it. And after I've sailed it.

    1) Will boat tack thru 90 degrees or so upwind? on foils?
    --I expect it will but I also expect that the boat has the potential to tack on foils as well as to gybe on foils. My previous RC foiler,the F3 design did it in relatively light air according to a report from a friend of another owner.In the first light air video the boat tacked fine,but in the video where she was overpowered, the rudder response was too sensitive and caused "pitch-ups". I corrected that in the foiling video but I overreacted and reduced sensitivity too much which caused tacking problems in the relatively light wind(5mph) with waves larger than would be expected. I think that is corrected now. She definitely would not tack on foils in that breeze especially with the main set so poorly-but I think she could have gybed on the foils but I ran out of time. The boat will definitely foil upwind and was held back in the foiling video by the poor set-up of the main. The boat wanted to fly upwind and she actually did for a couple of seconds as can be seen in the long video at between 1:58 and 2min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YBOEolFqiE
    ======
    2) Will it foil in a stable fashion downwind above a certain True Wind Speed?
    --Yes-above 5-6 knots TWS. The boat should begin to foil at a hull speed of 4.75 mph(4.13 knots). The foil loading and power are better than the F3 that met or exceeded these numbers.
    The boat foiled in a 5 mph(4.35 knots) breeze measured with a Davis windmeter. She was very stable in pitch and tended to roll a little in quartering waves.
    ======
    3) Much of the the time downwind it should fly on "X" number of foils. And this is the behavior I expect to see.
    -- It will fly with three foils immersed, one mostly unloaded, one of them carrying about 80% of the load ,the other 20% of the load. After the boat achieves full flight the main wand controlled foil will be near zero lift(except in it's roll of working with the rudder foil in pitch control) with the majority of the load carried by the ama foil and 20% of the load carried by the rudder foil. I expect that the boat will fly at a 10 degree angle of heel with the ama clear of the water most of the time. The boat should be able to foil upwind.
    The boat flew with the main foil, lee ama foil and rudder foil immersed. The setup when foiling was 75% of the load on the main foil and 25% on the rudder foil. She foiled at a 10 degree angle or less. There are a couple of instances when the boat was sailing upwind where the main hull and lee ama started to lift but the wind was so light and the main set so poorly that she didn't foil upwind(Except as stated in #1 above). However, there is no doubt whatsoever that she will foil upwind as I get her (and me) dialed in.
    ======
    4) Should do "X" when it hits a puff?
    --Speed up with little change in pitch and roll attitude.I expect the same after seeing her foil.
    ======
    5) Should do "Y" when it speeds up a lot?
    --Generally, the same as #4.Same.
    ======
    6) When it gets upside down ,it will.....?
    --Piss me off... Seriously, I expect the boat to be very stable in pitch and roll so will sail without masthead buoyancy for the first couple of times.She pitchpoled in the "overpowered" video but recovered. That was primarily due to the rudder when turning downwind. When she was foiling she was rock steady in pitch with a small roll in quartering waves. That roll could be cured by deeper ama foils which would be retractable. Always planned on that for the full size but not going to happen on the model(for a while at least).
    ======
    7) It will be very pitch stable because.........
    -- Even when the ama foil is fully loaded the wand controlled main foil and the rudder foil work together to control pitch of the whole boat and,therefore, the ride angle of the ama foil. Even if the ama foil was to ventilate, it can't physically pitch down, and the planing ama would pick up the slack(lack of lift).The pitch stability of the boat was quite apparent in the foiling video and will show up even more clearly in upcoming video.
    ======
    8) Things I am not sure about as a designer include its behavior in these conditions:
    a. bigger waves-the wand controlled main foil and rudder foil are very deep which should ensure pitch control in most conditions. Just what the conditions will be that exceed "most conditions" will be interesting to learn.
    b. behavior of the ama foil in near top end conditions- will it ventilate, plane(like a DSS foil) or some heretofore unknown combination of foiling and planing(and ventilating). The ama foil will get critical in it's performance far before the mainfoil and rudder foil do-that's why they are so deep. The effective range of ama foil performance both in terms of speed and waves is a major element of the testing to be done. I want an ama foil on the full size boat that doesn't require a wand or manual adjustment throughout the entire speed range-that's a big ask. We'll see how it goes.
    Even though we didn't have"near top end conditions" the ama foil performance was one of the big successes of the first foiling test: the UptiP ama foils worked perfectly maintaining a constant altitude even with different speed and loading. In one picture you can see the ama foil breach the surface with no apparent change in effectiveness. The foils were never adjusted before or during testing that day. I expect that in stronger winds I'll be able to reduce the foil angle of incidence and in the next test the effectiveness of the stb. ama foil with the iFlap will be compared with the port ama foil with just about 3 degrees of washin( positive twist-the opposite of washout on an airplane wing)-and equal area to the stb. foil.
    c. I want to experiment with the planing ama by changing the ama foil as well as changing the bottom area(but not the volume) of the ama itself.Still to come.
    d. As the designer, I want to see if the ama foil lifts the weight due to heeling moment from the slowest speed to the fastest speed-do my calculations match it's performance? I have concerns in both areas. At slowest speeds the foil may require something like the spring loaded flap to create enough lift,and at fastest speeds may require something like servo(manual) reduction in the angle of incidence. Generally, on my foilers I set the boat up with the angle of incidence of main foil at +2.5 degrees and the rudder foil at zero degrees. The ama is an asymmetric foil but I am still starting at + 3.75* degrees though that may too much. These angles are measured parallel to the nominal static waterline that starts at the bow knuckle and goes to the point where the center of the transom touches water. However, I discovered that if I tilt the boat(F3) back after setting the foils up as above, she will take off quicker. In about a 5-6 knot breeze the F3 would take off in about two boat lengths when set up this way. We'll see what this thing will do.* Actual AOI in the foiling video was about 7 degrees.Discussed in 8b above.
    =============================================================================
    Additional questions and comments:
    -----------
    9) The L/B ratio of the main hull is smaller than most tris-in other words the main hull is wider. Why do you expect that it will be satisfactory?
    -- The L/B ratio on this hull is close to that of a Weta full size tri and matches a 20' tri I designed and built many years ago. The hull is a planing hull and has about 20% more wetted surface(in seahugger mode) than the "ideal" rc or fullsize race tri main hull has. The model is scaled down from a full size hull I used to have which is the primary reason for the beam. But the most important factor in assessing how this hull will work is the Sail Area/Wetted Surface ratio* compared to my F3 RC trimaran foiler. And this boat has equal to more sail area per sq.in. of wetted surface than that boat does both in seahugging mode and when foiling.Since the boat took of in a 5mph breeze, it is evident that the L/B ratio of the main hull had ZERO negative effect on performance. This is a scale model of a full size "sport" foiler and I would use the same basic hull on a full size version after seeing the performance of the boat in all the videos.
    * SA/WS(with Code Zero)= equal to F3 at takeoff(even with the wide planing hull), better when foiling--7/1 seahugging, 16.5/1 foiling.
    ========
    10) You've said that the projected sailing weight of this boat is 21.13 lb which exceeds your target weight of 16.688lb. How will that affect the performance of the model?
    -- I don't expect it to affect the boat much because the amount of sail area per pound of weight almost equals the same measurement on the F3. The boat has enormous power to carry sail. The affect, if any, may be in very light air, but I don't expect a problem relating to weight and it's actually an excellent test for the ability of the boat to carry extra load. If this was designed from scratch as a racing rc trimaran it could have been built for 11-12 lb. but it is designed as a scale model. At any rate, the boat should be able to perform very well at this loading. I extended the stern of the main hull about 9% to improve pre-foiling take off speed. The boat took off and foiled well in a measured 5mph breeze-enough said!
    -------
    11) Full size applications in 60-100 footers?
    --After re-watching the MOD 70's and Open 60 tri's under sail I'm more convinced than ever that the wand controlled main foil could be a big aid in allowing not only much better light air performance because of flying the main hull in very light air , but improving heavy air performance by improving pitch stability while also allowing the boat to be pushed harder because the wand controlled(or electronically controlled) main foil can instantaneously develop downforce as a responce to a gust giving more margin(not to mention speed) in tough conditions. In a situation like Virbac-Paprec got into a short while back the main foil might have prevented the capsize. But thats one of the reasons why there is a test model-to see if that is true-which could be a big deal.After seeing her foil I'm more convinced than ever of the potential of this foil configuration on oversquare tri's of any size.
    -------
    12) Reefing changed --Decided to reduce the main size by cutting the foot along the lines already determined for reefing. Later the cut section can be added back but for now storage and transport is simplified.(9/10/15)
    -------
    13) Radio Box changed-see post 664. Will reduce size and weight of box. Makes installation of servos now and later simpler. Still allows for ama incidence control and "manual" mainfoil flap control with mounting of servos at ama and main foil servo on aft deck with wires run to box.
    -------
    14) Did you know: MPX = Max Power Experimental
    -------
    15) See post 1177, page 79 for the "bottom job" where the length of the main hull was increased by 5.25".
    -------
    16) See post 1178, page 79 for more pictures of the model with the rig on it for the first time.
    -------
    17) Technical Impressions of the Foiling Fire Arrow:
    Above on this page is the updated list of mods made since the last video on July 24th, 2014. I've posted a list of the history of the development of this boat with all the related videos on this page as well, but I'm going to add another list and that is the things the worked the way they were supposed to-or better. The last video showed some major accomplishments of this design so far:
    ---
    A) The boat foiled in a 5 mph wind.
    --
    B) the boat foiled in a 5mph wind at a weight of 21.13 lbs+ with just the main and jib. That is a major accomplishment because the main and jib have a combined sail area of 3390 sq.in. which is 160 sq.in/lb. The production RC foiler I designed 14+ years ago(F3) also foiled in a 5mph wind but she was 8lb with 1668sq.in. of sail or 208 sq.in. per lb.!
    --
    C) This boat foiled using two completely different altitude control systems-for the first time on any size trimaran anywhere, as far as I know:
    a. The main hull uses a dual wand controlled flap equipped main foil to help the boat fly in light air and to add righting moment in stronger wind,
    b. The amas used a refined version of UptiP foils, pioneered by Team New Zealand in AC34, for the very first time on any trimaran anywhere as of July 24th 2014! My design for the Fire Arrow foils attempted to create a foil that would require little or no adjustment while foiling while keeping the ama flying as the main foil unloaded and the boat sped up. There are pictures showing this actually happening-"A" and "B" below illustrate the ama flying before the main hull while keeping the ama at about the same altitude even when the main hull flew-so these UptiP foils worked under two completely different load and speed cases-can't get much better than that. I think that the ama foils may have to have their AOI(angle of incidence) adjusted down during high speed sailing but we'll see down the line. No adjustments were made to the ama foils while making the last video.
    --
    D) The foil configuration used by the Fire Arrow, as mentioned under altitude control systems above, is a one of a kind with tremendous advantages-particularly for an over square platform: Thanks to the wand controlled main foil the boat will fly the main hull in very light air which would be impossible if one waited for the sail force from the rig to allow the main hull to fly. The significance of that is that the oversquare beam is not a hindrance to light air performance and adds tremendous righting moment in stronger wind due to the very wide platform. But, the main foil isn't finished yet: as the boat speeds up the main foil is unloaded but as soon as it is required the wand controlled foil will add righting moment to the boat equivalent to half the boats weight or more! It does this because as the apparent wind increases and the boat heels a little more the leeside wand reacts by raising the main foil flap and that causes immediate downforce(righting moment).
    a. when the mainfoil is unloaded or creating downforce it "works with" the rudder foil in pitch control giving this platform tremendous resistance to pitch excursions compared to almost any other boat.
    b. the main and rudder foil together control the ride angle of the ama foil so that it is incapable of any sort of pitch reaction on its own-either up or down.
    This was one of the things so evident in the video and one of the great successes of July 24th.
    --------
    E) This doesn't mean the boat was perfect in the last video-the first full foiling video-I, as well as a few others, have pointed out areas that need work. We haven't sailed in strong wind with the boat working this well and there is plenty of refining to do(see the "mods" list above on this page). But I wanted to take a few minutes and point out the things that were successfully accomplished on July 24th, 2014. I hope I can get the help I need to follow up the excellent results on the 24th in 2015 in heavier air with some exciting video.

    [​IMG]
    ======================================

    All videos can be seen on my youtube channel here:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6S7JPG1d2uZ91lqt7ObyIw
    ---------------------
    Pictures "A" and "B" as discussed in 19c above:
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    D4Z, an AC 4.8(5.0?)RC America's Cup Cat

    I had some time so I decided to compare the D4Z daggerboard lateral resistance with that of the 20+ year old F3. It turns out I was able to reduce
    daggerboard area by almost 32% by matching the D4Z dagger + the projected vertical area of the surface piercing T-foil on its nominal flight waterline with that of the F3 daggers when flying. Should have done this to start with. The F3 would foil upwind and even tack on foils. The D4Z is designed to fly the windward surface piercing T-foil at an angle of heel of 4 degrees, so the areas were matched to one D4Z main foil. At that angle using one main foil the total lateral resistance area of the one foil is about 1% of sail area-same as the F3 using both its main foils.

    click-
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    D4Z, an AC 4.8(5.0?)RC America's Cup Cat

    Some foil stuff I find interesting about the D4Z at 8lb(incl. ballast system but no ballast).
    There are two main categories of hydrofoils-surface piercing and fully submerged. The boat now has a surface piercing T-foil on each side. If I put wand controlled foils on it they'll be identical to the F3 fully submerged foils:
    1) Surface Piercing T-foils(very experimental).
    a. area of one foil=30.87 sq. in before take off and as low as 12 sq. in. after takeoff. Altitude and foil area vary with speed. Designed to be able to sail on a single main foil with the windward foil clear of the water at a 4 degree angle of heel. Uses iFlap to increase lift at takeoff with the flap coming clear of the water after takeoff. Requires movable ballast.
    -----
    2)Wand controlled fully submerged foils-proven on F3 and Fire Arrow.
    a. area of one foil=17 sq. in before and after take off. Needs to always sail on two main foils-34 sq.in total. Needs 30 degree down flap to lift off. With 20 degree up flap windward foil can develop downforce. Whether it does so efficiently or not depends on the beam of the boat-the D4Z is probably too narrow for the wand controlled foils to work well. The foils on the D4Z would be 30" CL to CL compared to the same exact foil on the F3 at 60" CL to CL-both lifting the same weight. What that means is that the foils on the D4Z will have to work much harder to develop righting moment compared to the F3-and that will be slow. BUT, if the movable ballast system is used the foils could be unloaded so that they only have to lift the weight of the boat not the "extra weight" required to lift the boat AND create RM.
     
  11. PerthMini40man
    Joined: Jan 2014
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    Location: Australia

    PerthMini40man Senior Member

    Mini40 stuff

    Saturday sailing is here

    https://youtu.be/6R6c89InfCE


    Sunday sailing and Daryn's winter swim is here. We need a canoe . . .

    https://youtu.be/dX4LJolHYSA


    The foils on my Firedragon are no longer connected to servos. I have burnt out 2 servos and was suffering from lack of power. I need to understand the electronics better before I repeat this idea.
     

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  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    RC Foilers

    Always interesting, Ian. Sure would like to see some specs(weight, SA, foil areas) on the wand boat. Any chance of getting that info?
     
  13. PerthMini40man
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    PerthMini40man Senior Member

    Hello
    I could give you the data you are interested in but really not sure how relevant it is, as surely the efficiency of the foils is more important? So far I have found that their shape - and especially their angle of attack - is the most single most important factor in getting the boat to foil. The weight is almost irrelevant other than a heavy boat is really handy in strong winds, and I have already used all 3 rigs on Skyfall
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Well, that info would help to see how efficient the foils really are-it's very relevant to analyzing the performance of a foiler. Since this is a design forum discussing and sharing details like that would help anybody interested in small foiler design. All the detail you're willing to share would be helpful.
    Foil loading is very important. You need to know the all up weight, the amount of weight the two main foils are carrying-usually around 70-80 % and the main lifting foil area including flaps. Sail area for the lowest windspeed the boat will take off is helpful. CL to CL location of the T foils is important for determining how foil loading is affected by the need to develop righting moment on a wand controlled foiler. The angle of incidence of the fixed main foil(s) is important.
    I think we could ,possibly, both benefit from a detailed discussion of the design choices you've made on your wand controlled foiler and it would surely be interesting for others as well.
     

  15. PerthMini40man
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    PerthMini40man Senior Member

    Sailing weight = 4.2kgs
    Max sail area = 0.9sq m
    T foil area (each); fixed section = 16cm x 1.3cm. Angle of incidence = 2 degrees. Flap = 16cm x1.5cm
    Rudder foil = 18cm x 3.5cm. angle of incidence = zero
    T foils are 118cm apart
     
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