GForce1500, White's Atlantic 48 or Hughes 48-50

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by jorgepease, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    I really like Schionning's web site, they have a good presentation and I like the documented build http://www.zeezeilen.com/voortgang-bouw.html which would use very similar technique that I would use.

    Does anyone have a GForce1500 or 1700. Im leaning toward the smaller 1500 to save money and because I may at times have to go solo.

    I am a minimalist, don't need lots of furniture, everything must have it's spot, I want performance and to circumnavigate but I do want a little comfort too including an inside helm station which I noticed they've done before on the 1500.

    Any experience with this boat would be greatly appreciated. Also what is the average cost for materials on a 50'? I was told by White that their A57 would be approximate 500k for all materials.

    Thanks,

    Jorge
     
  2. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I've done a passage Pt Lincoln to Melbourne on an earlier Chris White designed 46 (extended to 48') catamaran. I think it's a very good serious cruising boat and the inside helm is excellent. The front cockpit is a great place for sailing and very safe and dry most of the time. Light air performance wasn't much good below say 7-8 knots TWS the boat barely moved and we spent quite a bit of time motoring. As I'm used to light trimarans and sailing quite well in those conditions I found that a bit disappointing but I think it's pretty much applicable to all larger and heavier multihulls with moderate rigs. The positive is how assured the boat felt in higher windspeeds we had a best top speed for the journey of 18.9 knots and I did a few night watches where we were sliding along at a fairly steady 13-14 knots.
     
  3. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Hi Corley, I do like that inside helm on his boats too and that front door. The inside helm will be a requirement on whichever design I go with and for sure those front windows have to open. Can you tell me how you felt about accommodations and was it comfortable hanging out at anchor? How many people were on the boat? Thanks!

    The GForce 1500 specs claim 16-18 knots cruise and top speed of 25 plus knots but I think I like the layout of the GForce a little better and Chris White mentioned his design wasn't meant for the home builder, not sure if he means the plans are less detailed or that it needs to be built as a single component at a boat yard.

    I did find a boatyard to build in though, so that won't be influencing my decision.
     
  4. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I thought the accommodations were pretty good and that the centre cantilevered double bunks very commodious and well ventilated. I didn't sleep in them but would think they would be better berths on passage than many front cantilevered berths as they were more centrally located. On the delivery there were 5 of us onboard. There were plenty of nooks and crannies to sneak off to off watch to read a book, it wasn't crowded.

    The front V berths were virtually unusable at higher speed imo though two of the crew used the starboard forward V (hardy souls who must have liked antigravity). I snatched my best sleep on the saloon seating in the bridgedeck which had plenty of space across the back to treat as berth. I liked the galley down which was quite spacious and it was easy to pass food up to the bridgedeck from there.

    I'd take suggested cruise speeds with a grain of salt. The sea state, wind conditions and the level of discomfort that you are willing to accept tends to keep averages lower than you would expect. A good friend used to work on a 9 knot average on his 45' performance cat when passage planning which seems reasonable.

    I've know a few Schionning builders and they were reasonably happy with the kits and support they received while building. I have Kurt Hughes plans for a 40' trimaran and have found him to be very helpful and generous. He is economical with words since he has a high email workload but if you think out your questions and ask them concisely you will get good responses.
     
  5. rattus
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    rattus SeƱor Member

    Corley's right - we've sailed on Schionnings, Graingers, Maine Cats, and most of the production builders (no Gunboats, dammit) and the "usual" production French cats- it comes down to displacement, b/l ratio, centralization of mass, sail area and sea state (ok, plus, with the production builders, deck clearance and windage).

    I really like the new Chris White Atlantic 47. Only spent a short time on a 55, thought it was brilliant. FWIW. In my price range, the Maine Cat 38 is intriguing.
     
  6. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    There is a design comparison table on Schionnings website that gives some material cost estimates - no idea how up to date these are.
    http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/upl/website/design-comparison/Designcomparisontable.pdf

    The G force 15 figure is 340k (presumably Australian dollars). Using the figures from the main website (which is likely more up to date) the displacement quoted is 6100 kg which less payload (1500 kg) = 4600kg for the empty weight of the boat. The cruising version has slightly fatter hulls and an extra tonne payload.

    Comparing this with the Atlantic 48 the quoted disp is 21,500 lbs or 9752kg, approximately 3600kg heavier than the G15. CW doesn't appear to give a payload or an empty weight for the A48 (on his web site).
     
  7. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Thanks Corely/ Rattus/ Jamez, that helps a lot. Wish I could get on one.

    Can something be interpreted from this weight difference? Good or Bad? I know generally light is better but too light, I hear, can be a problem as well.

    The G Force, at 340 AU or 260 US would fit my budget. I'm surprised that it's about half the cost of the A57 for just 10' extra length.

    The 9 knot average that Corely mentioned makes me think that top speed is less important but speed probably also correlates to low wind or into the wind performance?

    I am a complete newbie to sailing so forgive any stupid questions. I'm def a minimalist so spartan is not bad but when I am hanging out for a month or so on mooring it would be nice to be comfy too.
     
  8. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Remember these are MATERIALS budgets - allow for many - maybe 6-8000 hours of labour too.

    Be careful of looking at designers budgets and considering them solid. The same design can be built for a range of about 100% variation depending on fitout and build philosophy.
     
  9. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Yes I know, I will be the labor plus one or two other guys to help at times. I did my own cost estimate and came out much lower but I know how that goes.

    rattus was saying he likes the new A47, I guess he means the MastFoil which is quickly becoming my favorite as well. I especially like the clean look of less lines and the raised galley.

    Above all I like the inside helm with the forward door to cockpit.

    edit - I was just doing some reading and it seems a couple of the first two boats lost their masts. That will hopefully be figured out by the time I get started
     
  10. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    The Mast Foil is an interesting concept. The MF 41 on Chris's website is pretty swoopy looking.

    You need to know the empty weight and the payload allowance to make a reasonable comparison between designs IMO. Heavier boats built of the same stuff cost more.

    The best way to get solid cost info is to talk to someone who has recently built one. With the boats you are considering this may mean talking to a pro builder. If you are going to build yourself one of the Schionning flat panel kit boats could be worth considering.

    Apologies for going off topic, but if I needed a boat this size I'd be on the next plane to Australia to check out the second hand market which at the moment seems kind of 'slow').
    http://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/schionning-1480/164894

    Also this A46/48 here in NZ on the current exchange rate is about 300k US
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/multihull/auction-1122859065.htm
     
  11. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    The mastfoil for me would be a life saver as I usually end up flying solo!

    I would be using foam sandwich (corecell) in a mold and plan to infuse both hulls and the bridge deck in one shot to minimize fairing. The changes I would ask for are to extend the hulls from 47 to 50' to give me an extra 3' in the aft cockpit. That won't add much weight and would turn that space into something great!

    I could go with a used boat but I am a builder at heart, all my life homes, low rise and high rise and just completed a 22' flats boat that I infused also using corecell.

    Also I really like the torquedo hybrid drive integrated system, even if it does cost 100K, I think it brings value to the boat. Im not going to find that kind of stuff in older boats and at my age, I want what I want, this is the last go-round for me.

    Thanks for those links though, I like to use them as reference points.
     
  12. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I'm not sold on the mastfoil solution. The performance seems rather poor from what I've seen in videos so far. I understand the objective is to improve cruising simplicity but soft sails are great and with a proper reefing system not that hard to deal with.
     
  13. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    Completely understand the urge to build to get what you want having done so myself, although on a somewhat smaller scale. To reiterate, I think it would be prudent to get some professional input to ensure the costings are realistic.
     
  14. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Corley, from what Im reading in other forums, you are right. But I hope he can work that out in the next 6-12 mos, maybe a little more sail area or ...

    On the costs, yes definitely. I would go through this with a fine tooth comb first and hope to get my uncle, Kiko Villalon of Ancon Marine to give it a look as well.
     

  15. Barra
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    Barra Junior Member

    Yes, and they are still struggling with the engineering with two dis-mastings out of the few boats launched "allegedly".
     
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