Gensets specifically for hybrid power sail (mono & multi)

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by masalai, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. masalai
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    masalai masalai

  2. masalai
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    masalai masalai

  3. Archim
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    Archim Junior Member

    Other generators

    Ample Power is now manufacturing 48v DC gensets based on Kubota mini-serie diesel engines, and their own alternators :

    - Genie 48/100 : 2-cylinder with one alternator, supplying 100 A at 57.6 V;
    - Genie 48/200 : 3-cylinder with two alternators, total supply 200 A at 57.6 V.

    The 200 A is installed with a large oil tank for automatic oil changing, to reduce maintenance. Indeed with such a large current, wiring and protections have to be carefully designed.

    Aside from automatic start/stop based on battery SOC, the Ample alternators charging controllers have battery temperature compensation, which for instance Fischer Panda VCS (Voltage Control System) do not offer. Given the number of batteries needed, it is a point to consider seriously.

    Neither Fischer Panda nor Ample Power offer speed control seen on the Ossa Powerlite 220 VDC generator. But from the article from Nigel Calder in the Oct-Nov 07 ProBoat issue, a more sophisticated controller from Fisher Panda seems to be in the work.

    JC
     
  4. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Achim, Thanks for the info & site, check out the weight differences and fuel efficiency... I am after maximum range so less gen-set weight means more fuel for same overall boat weight. Have a look at the "Ice-Cat Challenge" http://www.icecat.com.au/trial.htm and the other pages are well worth a read....
     
  5. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Here's an idea that seems to be really catching on, putting a 'generator' inside the bell housing of the propulsion engine. Steyr was an early promoter, and now Yanmar joins in:

    Steyr Integrated Flywheel Generator
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/32761-post63.html

    Yanmar Integrated Unit
     

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  6. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    These are indeed a great step forward?, for the service economy.

    Instead of yanking an alternator off the front of the engine or a PTO,
    you get to disconnect the shaft , remove the engine , unbolt the transmission and finally to purchase replacement parts ONLY from one dealer.

    WOW!

    FF
     
  7. Archim
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    Archim Junior Member

    Efficiency and weight

    Masalai, when you say you're "after maximum range", what are your criteria (type of boat, length, displacement, motor speed, programme) ?

    A typical serial DE will have an efficiency around 70% (80% generator, 85% motors & controllers); an hybrid system 55% to 60%, depending of the relative size of the battery bank (considering 80% battery efficiency).

    Fuel efficiency can be increased by having e.g. two generators of different sizes, which has the substantial benefit of offering redundancy in case of a generator breakdown, but with a weight and cost penalty.

    The most efficient is the parallel DE motorisation, which allows better fuel efficiency than a traditional diesel/shaft transmission at low loads (typical situation at cruising speed in smooth sea), with a minimal weight addition; but it does not offer the main advantages of a serial or hybrid solution : design flexibility, noise reduction, automatic battery bank management etc.

    Every choice is a compromise corresponding to different needs...

    JC
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  8. CTMD
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    CTMD Naval Architect

    The best solution in the one I worked up a couple of years ago but lacked the time or money to develop..

    Inline geabox / brushless DC motor (95% effiecient). Drive options become:

    1. Direct diesel, no generator/ wire/ battery/ motor controller etc etc losses
    2. Hybrid, Diesel and electric motor driving the same shaft.
    3. Electric, Motor only

    4. Long range cruise (cats only). One engine running driving its own prop and powering second prop via regen off the attached motor.
     
  9. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Archim, - - I am still digging around. - - The boat will be a cat, - I need regular "Go sail" fixes, so it is either, power with a little beach cat as tender, or sail cat as the cruiser... I acknowledge that weight control is an issue on all cats with any hope of performing. - - To that end I am looking at power alternatives, and Lombardini have a light diesel & the genset produced by - - http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/marine_micro_cogen_lomb.htm - - without the box, seems to meet the "sail version" need, in conjunction with the "retractable drive system" from http://www.africancats.com/ with minimalist batteries for 'house' which supply power whilst diesel kicks in... I am looking at twins of both.

    The market appears to be very dynamic, in that new technology is being presented on an almost daily basis. This is good for us boaties. That is one of the reasons I was happy to set up and cross link several threads, on this, and related topics... Look at post one for the links...
     
  10. Archim
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    Archim Junior Member

    Parallel DE

    Chris,

    This is indeed what I was referring to by a 'parallel' Diesel Electric (that I have discovered in the recent series of articles from Nigel Calder and Graeme Hawksley in Professional Boatbuilder): a diesel engine and an electical motor in parallel, driving the same shaft.

    Graeme Hawksley from Hybrid Marine is presently developping this system. There is a very interesting comparison of the available DE technologies here.

    Examples of efficiencies of a brushless motor or controller at various speeds can be found here and there. In the case of Hybrid Marine, I have been surprised to note that the 48vDC motor+controller is 86% efficient at full boat speed, but only 70% efficient at half boat speed. I have read somewhere that controller efficiencies increase with voltage, so I suppose that overall efficiency of systems with higher max voltage (e.g. 72vDC for Leroy Somer, 144vDC for Solomon/eMotion, 220vDC for Ossa Powerlite) is likely to be increased.

    Both Graeme and you arrived to the same conclusion for best fuel efficient catamarans, see attached pdf.

    JC
     

    Attached Files:

  11. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Archim, I looked at your pdf, may I suggest you have a look around the AfricanCats site. - - I see no point in dragging a screw (folding or otherwise, hence the "retractable" option) - swing up and out of the water when sailing with no need to recharge batteries quietly... to recharge batteries swing one or both screws down into the water, switch on, kick the throttle/s a bit to activate the generator mode...

    Had a look at your other links and gather you are talking "monohull" and I am thinking/talking cat - coming from different angles but technology needs are similar.
     
  12. CTMD
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    CTMD Naval Architect

    Archim, without wanting to be rude, that's a very dumbed down version of my concept. Mine would look more like the picture that Brian attached with the gearbox and generator components combined and enlarged (reverse would be from electric drive only). Its also important to separate brush-less DC motor from their brushed siblings. Back in my solar car days we were running brush-less motors that were 97-98% efficient. brushless motors also have a lot more consitant efficincies accross the range of speeds, due to the nature of their switching.
     
  13. Archim
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    Archim Junior Member

    Chris, you are correct, the motors from the Hybrid-Marine trials might be brushed motors although there is no reference, and the LEM motors are definitely brushed.

    Which manufacturers of brushless electric motors would you recommend for marine DE ?

    JC
     
  14. CTMD
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    CTMD Naval Architect

    Good question, my application requires a custom design for which I would talk to one of the research groups who were developing these motors last time I used them (1999) ie. Northern Territory University, University of Technology, Sydney or Paul Lillington. I'd be surprised if you could find a suitably marinized product off the shelf. The only way to find out would be through some serious Internet research and getting on the phone to people.
     

  15. Archim
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    Archim Junior Member

    Thanks Chris. Sydney is a little far for me... eMotion (ex Solomon) and Ossa motors are brushless, but I'd like to find the equivalent with a 48vDC voltage, to reduce number of batteries.

    Masalai, yes I've looked at the links at post #1. Nice and enjoyable thread, thanks for opening it. Those retractable propellers offer many advantages: more efficient fixed propellers, no drag when sailing, regen only when wanted. Let's wait and see when AfricanCat have finished their trials and are ready to launch the product. I wonder what the length of the arm will be, and whether large bulkheads reducing brigedeck clearance will be needed as shown.

    JC
     
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