Foiling - the Future or a Folly

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by bistros, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Much of this including beating a fleet of A Class cats and F18's is documented on Rohan Veals website and the 18 Scott Babbage's site and others.
    Bladerider "Dash for Cash" :
    French website-Foilers!-excellent-15,000 visits in December! :

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  2. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Nobody other than Doug believes this. Everyone else understands that consistent performance over time across a spectrum of conditions is more important than isolated incidents in favorable conditions. I'm perfectly willing to concede a foiling Moth is capable of spectacular performance IN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. I'm also willing to prove that many traditional dinghy designs can win races against a foiling Moth in the right conditions.

    There is no point arguing this, save your breath.
  3. bistros

    bistros Previous Member



    I've assumed by revolution you meant a violent upheaval in the status quo, followed by significant change. I was unaware you were using the other definition of revolution - rotating around a fixed point and returning to the exact same origin.

    Using this definition, your posts on foiling are certainly a "revolution". My apologies for misunderestimating your meaning.

    It IS a revolution!, (but not the Che Guevara kind)
    Sarah/Jeb 2012 - gotcha, wink, wink!
  4. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    That just might be the post of the year.
  5. PortTacker
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    PortTacker Junior Member

    I think develpment will continue, and will also continue to be a minor niche if that. Certain people are drawn to that sort of thing, the vast majority will not be.
    Even affordable foiling sailboats that worked well didn't gain market hold (such as the Windrider Rave.) Most people will want more versatility in their boats, not to mention durability for the long haul.
    The lessons learned from foiling development might well impact the mainstream, who knows? But foiling itself, I don't see ever becoming "the norm."
  6. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I think the interest in foiling, within the forum at least, is evident from the fact that Bistro’s thread has attracted 20 replies in less than 24 hours.

    While unlikely to become dominant, some kind of breakthrough may come along to take it into the big time. Not sure what that might be, perhaps a new design concept or a popular do-it-yourselfer, the “Mirror Foiler!” It may be a commercially available boat that “anyone” can sail, as Hobie tried to do. The Rave comes close, but both seem too heavy.

    Some examples of “extreme sailing” like windsurfers and kite boards are limited by the level of physical ability required. The Moth falls into that category, but it need not be a fundamental characteristic of foiling. WOW factor notwithstanding, IMHO the sailing foiler will not achieve public recognition with the current emphasis on extreme speed.

    Two things are sure, foiling won’t take off (ugh) unless someone promotes it, and the naysayers will have no effect on the outcome either way. It looks like fun and I would like to try it. But only if it sails: no stinkpots for me thank you.
  7. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    Hmmm...I think your analogy would only apply if 23 players on the other team were throwing fastballs right back to him...not a very logical analogy.

    AK's comment stands the "holds water test"...if it's generating enough interest in the forum to get this many responses, then it's OBVIOUSLY generating interest in this forum. (FACT, not opinion)
    It doesn't matter if the responses are disagreeing, only that there is enough interest there to generate them.
  8. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Growth in the Moth class since foilers came along......

    Aussie Moth nationals

    '99/00 nationals; 43 boats (inc 8 overseas entries).
    00/01 - not available.
    01/02 - 32 entries.
    02/03 - 29 entries
    03/04- 42 entries (first foiler win).
    04/05 - 35 entries
    05-06 - 29 entries
    08/09 - 41 entries

    UK Moth nationals

    2000 -17
    2001- 20
    2002- 19
    2003- 18
    2004- 32 (foilers start winning around this time)
    2005- 24
    2006- 11
    2007- 20
    2008- 29

    There's no doubt that the top foilers are performing incredibly well in the right conditions, able to pace or beat top A Class and 49ers etc; they are of course much less amazing in other conditions when the non-foilers just keep on flying along. Of course, it's amazing that an 11 footer manages to keep up with such craft (although of course Formula boards do the same).

    Oh, and editorial from the UK Moth class site;

    "Now the foiler fleet is causing all kinds of headaches for the organisers. Lacking an official PY rating and with vast differences in performance between sailors and in different conditions, it's impossible to set a fair number. The response has been to rate the fastest known sailor (commodores exchange emails on Si Payne) and set that as the yardstick. This year Grafham is using 690 and Queen Mary has given us our own foiler race (although they'll still have to decide where in the sequence to start us - at the back presumably).

    A 49er races to PY747. For fun last weekend I squared up to one leading a race at Grafham. He certainly didn't look like an olympic champion but was sailing well enough. Upwind I just hung on and downwind in the gusts made up some ground. But as soon as the breeze died, my angles were hopeless and his big kite pulled him well away.

    It's hard to know what the sentiment is in the UK sailing world. Are foilers seen as magic carpets giving average sailors a huge speed boost? Or are they seen as difficult to sail in which only the very best sailors can be fast? In short if a Moth wins the Grafham Grand Prix, will it be 'well done' or 'doesn't count'?

    Those of us who know, realise that very few Mothies can live with a 49er round a crowded race track. Our small sail and restricted tactical options mean we spend too much time below full speed or going in the wrong direction. Scott's recent blog says he matched a competitive 18foot skiff in Sydney harbour round a course. He should know, he sails one. For the rest of us, par with a 49er would be a very real challenge - 690 is for champions only."
  9. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Not to mention the 129,000 views of "Foiler Design" and 96,000 views of "Moth on Foils".....
    The Moth Class from Simon Paynes perspective(from Sail-World):
    Sail-World--The foiler Moth has received a huge amount of publicity over the past couple of years and is now seen as a future Olympic class. What has brought the class out of the closet and made it an acceptable mainstream choice?

    Payne--'The Moth scene is fantastic. Most guys and some girls I know in their 30s and 40s are on a diet trying to get into the Moth class. In itself that’s a good thing, because they’re down at the gym getting fit.

    'I think it’s because the boat is like where windsurfing was all those years ago where pulling off a gybe is great fun, people learning new manoeuvres - it’s quite frontier based, and people are learning to sail them and having just as much fun darting around as they are sailing races.

    'The Moth scene in the UK is not very active right now because it’s about minus six degrees, but it’s growing. My home club Hayling Island has got fourteen moths there now. We don’t have the depth of some of the Olympic sailors like Nathan and Charlie McKee in the US who are coming into the class quite yet, but that’s because team GBR is a pretty intense place to be right now.

    'Nathan Outteridge is a professional sailor, and you can see how good he is out there. It’s wonderful for the Moth class to have people like Nathan coming into it. It’s a privilege for people like me to race against him. He’s a class act, and he’ll go far.

    Five years ago the Moth class was full of people with beards tinkering in the garage and making stuff in the kitchen, and look at it now. It just makes you feel great that we’re one of the premier dinghy classes at the moment.'
  10. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Doug, give yourself some credit. You are the single most effective attention getter for foiling threads. Not the technology. Not the boats. Not the other people actually building and sailing foilers. You.

    You are 20% archivist, 20% agitator and 60% colossal chain reaction car crash.

    People are attracted to your threads because you have taken the Jerry Springer path to success - and you have succeeded wildly. It is hard to resist peeking in to a Doug Lord thread. It is even more difficult to avoid disputing the wild claims and hype presented as fact. I've had you on "Ignore all posts by Doug Lord" for a year on Sailing Anarchy and I still can't resist looking in once in a while. Funny, but I don't bother with Springer or slowing down for car crashes.

    I hope this doesn't come as a surprise to you. If it does come as a surprise, I hope it is not shocking. You may have thought all along you are the Tim Russert / "Meet The Press" of foiling. There is a reason why an Australian Moth sailor paid to have "See no Doug, Hear no Doug, Speak no Doug" incorporated as a graphic on his mainsail.

    I can't dispute the fact you have attracted enormous attention, but I question if the attention gained actually has been of net benefit to the people who actually design, build and sail (full sized) foilers. Personally, I think you've turned more people off foiling than you've attracted, but that is just my opinion.

    I'm not trying to attack you personally here. I hope that you read this, take it for what it is intended and then choose your path forward. If you choose to continue your current method, fine.

    Cheers. I wish I lived in Florida and could be sailing instead of typing this in -20. Perhaps you could go sailing today for me.

  11. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    CT: I can see how foilers are causing mixed-class race organisers to have conniptions; I suspect whatever handicapping system they use the outcome is determined by the weather on the day.

    It seems to me that the Moth is designed for maximum speed under certain conditions (sufficient wind to foil) and would be handicapped by underwater drag and a hull shape that doesn't look like it would plane. I haven't seen one except in videos and they don't show what they are like when they are

    "slogging along through the water
    like a proper boat orter"

    -so I 'm guessing. It prompts me to wonder if a compromise design would have better all-round weather performance in "open" races; use of Vee foils would reduce on-foil speed with more bits piercing the surface but could be partially raised to function as Bruce foils in light airs allowing more sail to be carried. Make a better all-round boat perhaps, but might need a bigger boat than a Moth.

    Doug: rejoice, all your hard work is getting recognition!
  12. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    I often wonder why this forum attracts so many ******* unwilling to use their given name. You have to wonder about people's intentions when they are unwilling to identify themselves. You could come up with justifiable reasons if the subject matter was different but this forum does not stray too far from technical matters and the forces shaping development.

    Other technical forums I monitor or participate in regularly, have participants using given names. Maybe boating just attracts a weird crowd with something to hide.

    Rick W
  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Yes,it is a revolution!

    Hah! Maybe the old axiom:"any publicity is good publicity" is true?! Sure hope so-I think. But seriously, I think the chance of a "Peoples Foiler" (or three)coming along is almost certain. Many people are working on boats that could do the trick. And Greg Ketterman is being awfully secretive these days! And then there is Dr. Sams Osprey... And I've heard a new aeroSKIFF is making progress-midship wand/manual altitude control and all.....
    Its an exciting time for people who think outside the box into which everything before today fits. The technology has not even been applied in 1 % of the potential areas where it can improve sailing for everyone.
    For the visionless ,I'm sorry for you-but stay tuned: it's gona get real exciting!!
  14. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Chris, leaving aside your opinions of Doug for a while if we can, what do you think about the future of foiling? Passing fad, wave of the future, or just an obsession of obscure enthusiasts? I would like to read about Sam Schneider's work, since he seems to be doing what I may decide to do, so can you give us the link please?

    Rick, my name is Terry Haines. How do you do. I took the label above because when I first found this forum many of the people posting, except the well known professionals, were using nom de plumes. Over 50% in fact. it seemed amusing so I did the same. In my case it's a descriptive label, what I am rather than who I am. As a nobody in the field of boating, it is more informative than giving my name. It seems to bother Chris from time to time, although he has my name and e-mail. Since I value the opinions of both of you I will be happy to change it. Do you know how I can do that?

  15. PortTacker
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    PortTacker Junior Member

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