foiling 18

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by John ilett, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest


    From SA:
    Hello anarchists

    Sorry for not posting before but I was two days in bed after the press conference (sponsor's obligation) of Thursday, the weeks before were to intense.

    I am very happy to see that my "thing" inspires many comments.

    Basically Toby Heppels article on explains very well the general ideas.

    We have now been sailing for over a year with our upgraded 18.
    It works very well now :
    - we are able to gybe easyly on the wings when the wind is more than 12 knots
    - with a small rig 17 + 7 sqm (on the big mast) we fly in 20 knots of TWS
    - we are learning the veal heal and are going upwind 14 kns at 55 TWA
    - the boat weighs 220 kg (it took + 25 kg changing to foils)

    - FOILING IS FUN !!!!

    To be more polyvalent for the lake races the boat lacks performance in none foiling conditions, the 18 hull is not the best shape in light wind conditions

    So the basic ideas of the new machine where
    - keep the rig and wings and bowsprit (new sails though)
    - keep the foils (optimise position)

    put away the 18 footer hull and replace it by
    - a slender hull for non flying conditions (50 % of our sailing time)
    - gain as much weight as possible to lift off as soon as possible

    But today I still do not know what would be the best hull shape (straight line performance vs stability)

    But I was sur to be able to build the lightest frame work possible with standsrd tubes ( from C-tech Newsealand)

    Building a monocoque straight away I was afraid to build from "shed to shred", that is the reason to have seperated the two functions

    First we will fit a catamaran hull (the upper 2/3 rds choppped off) as you can see on the computer renderings, lenght 28 feet width 1.5 feet, with completely round sections - no idea weather we are able to stand up more than 1 second .but ..If it works it should really improve light wind performance (minimal wetted surface ) and that would be our polyvalent standard set up
    this hull will weihgh 30 kg

    To hget the numbers right

    mast and sails an bowsprit and boom 40 kg
    structure 35 kg
    foils tiller extensiosn etc 30 kg
    rpoes clams etc 5 kg
    wings 18 feet (no C class here) 15 kg

    total ideal flying weigth 125 kg

    catamaran hull 30 kg

    crew 240 kg

    total sailin weight 395 kg

    other ideas include
    - two inflated round bananas 3 kg each
    - rapp the whole thing in some film
    - buils lighter hull with no sandwich but air presure indide etc

    rom the first picture of post one you can tell:
    - slack d4 >> slack downhaul <> slack leach >> low tacking and third man in side
    - bad wand response flying to hih front foil
    - good heal sometimes too much
    - speed going 17-18 kn reachnin
    - stupide crew, for forgetting that the foam floatters were not meant for heavy landing

    the two othwer picturs show
    - oil rig floatters made of sewer pipes quickly made but too heavy
    - our "spinaker" actually a flying stay sail

    I sold a 3 year program to the bank and we will really nead these three years to tune thiis machine
    So we are looking forward for three years of fun

    i will try to inform fromtime to time on evolution on our blog


    (yes we bought helmests)
  2. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    I don't think Jundt really means that he'd like to GAIN as much weight as possible. An issue with the language differences, perhaps. Nevertheless, he does say that they have PUT AWAY the 18 footer and moved on to another design.

    Now, I don't know where you guys come from in the design world, but this typically means they have moved on to another example at a completely different LOA, for a holly new purpose.

    Example: An Antrim 27 is not the same boat as an Antrim 24, or an Ultimate 20 or any of the other proposed boats of this lineage that have come from the desk of Jim Antrim. One begins and ends and the next one is taken up as a separate design process. And that is for boats that look very much alike in shape and finish. What do you call it for this design when it has virtually nothing in common with the original Aussie18 that was used to explore foiling potential?


    So, not only was your first comment incorrect about the overall length of the pseudo hull attachment piece, but you have further displaced the new design from the original Aussie 18 by an additional number of feet. Perhaps you can describe to us all how this compares to the developent of a foiling Aussie18 when it is ten feet longer and only 1.5 feet in beam of hull form?

    No, Doug, this is not anywhere near the same development path. It is, in fact, a completely new departure from the previous iteration and represents a fundamental change of thinking as to what might make a suitable foiler for Jundt's interests, which are low speed foiling and improved average speeds around a course. Does that design brief sound like an Aussie18 to you? You know, the class that goes balls to the wall all the time?

    Here's my take on all this development. Jundt will quickly come to the party and actually create a suitable hull for this machine which can keep it on the surface, should it fall off its foils. The developmental hull will be quite a bit wider than the existing plan for a really skinny cat type hull and it will need to function in lake hugger mode as a sailing craft and not just for the purposes of making another transition back to the foils.

    These Swiss lakes are fickle with their wind conditions and this boat will see limited time on the water unless the wind is strong enough to get it foiling quickly and keep it there.

    Should be fun to watch the NON-Aussie18 foiler.
  3. wind_apparent
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: boulder colorado

    wind_apparent wind driven speed addict

    why don't you and doug just get a room at the best western and bang it out:p
    or maybe do all of your childish bickering by personal message so people don't get all ramped up by "new boat forums E-mail" just to find out its another Chris and Doug pissing contest......its a cool boat, why can't you just focus on that:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: I've read many posts by both of you, and some are very helpful and informitive, is this a forum for and about sailboats?, or a forum for soap opera type drama,? grow up... (or don't, because sometimes it's really funny:D )
    2 people like this.
  4. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Doug's never asked. ;-)

    Yeah, it does have a certain coolness now factor going for it. So, maybe you can answer the question; What's the end game purpose of this cool boat?
  5. wind_apparent
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    wind_apparent wind driven speed addict

    my guess is so that maybe someone else will build one, then they could race them against eachother....:rolleyes: then maybe a couple more people would build them, then that would be what we in the industry call a "class", and if that became an "open development class", people could have a lot of cool ideas of what might go fast, and then they could build these things in different groups or "syndicates" and they could spend alot of time and money doing this. Over time all these "ideas" would either work out or not work out, and something called "Design Evolution" might happen, this in turn might change the way all Sailboats are made, or sailed, or thought about, hell mabe people might end up watching Sailboats on TV someday, I know its crazy, But anything is possible.;)

    sorry, but I had to do it, Sarcasm is fun :D
  6. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Not to get off topic here, but:

    Neither the Ultimate 20 nor the Antrim 27 were designed by Jim Antrim.

    The Ultimate 20 is a souped up Hotfoot 20.

    The "Antrim" 27 was designed by Gary Mull before he passed.
  7. Meanz Beanz
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    The thing has not been completed yet so lets not judge until its done and they either put it forward as an 18 or they don't.

    30' LOA must include the poles, I don't know what current 18's are including poles but it sure as chit ain't 18'.

    Original 18.... don't make me laugh, take a look at an original 18' an tell me how much they have in common with the current machines.


    18's where the ultimate development class until the accountants clipped the wings a little.

    Chris, where I'm from.... 18's, 16's, 14's and 12's where sailed before you'd heard of them.

    12's now they where a real beast of a boat :D 600 sqft of kite has been known and one of the best sailors in the auld days only had one arm :eek: some vids on youtube as well. They too have evolved some what.

    You know the way these things tend to want to leave the water in their currently raced configuration, flying has to be considered a reasonable evolutionary step. :p

    wind_apparent..... about time some one said that. :D

  8. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    That'd probably be startling info for Antrim as he lists both boats on his website under monohull designs. Perhaps a quick note to Jim, letting him know of his faulty understanding...?

    Here's how this works with 15 minutes on the Internet: Jim was the lead designer on the team of folks who came up with the final pass on the Ultimate20. From the Ulitmate20 class web page: "The Ultimate 20 was the result of a team of sailors with impressive credentials. Jeff Canepa (owner of Ultimate) headed a team that included Jim Antrim of Antrim Associates-Naval Architects, sail maker and Olympic medalist Jay Glaser, and 505 builder and foil specialist Larry Tuttle."

    Now, you can say it was inspired by some other boat, as pretty much all boats are derived from something else that came before, but the design is and looks, very much like, the work of Antrim.

    Get some data on your position and we can discuss it elsewhere, if you wish.

    The Antrim27. The design was originally begun by Gary Mull, that is correct. However, he died of cancer before he could complete the entire process. Gary's wife asked Jim Antrim to complete the design. In the process of doing that work, Antrim virtually reworked the entire boat, resulting in a new package. You can take a look at the Ultimate Sailboats site here: for a pdf on the Antrim27. They clearly list Antrim as the designer.

    Also, from Jim's site, there's a revealing look at the issue starting on the bottom of this page: in which the writer, Shimon Van Collie created a piece that ran in the SFBay area Latitude 38 in June of '94, says, "Other projects now occupy his drawing table. One is redesigning of a Mull 27-foot ultralight with a lifting bulb keel and an asymmetrical kite."

    There's more on this topic, but I've listed enough.

    Now, Jim is a highly regarded NA. He has been awarded the honor of Fellow by SNAME and is one of the most creative designers of boats you can find. Why would Antrim post public claims for these boats on his website if he did not do the work? Can you think of any reason why that would be so? If you have other info and it can be corroborated accurately, you'll have a headline grabbing subject for every sailing magazine in the world.

    I get that there's scuttlebutt on the docks and in the bars of sailing locations worldwide. Unfortuantely, I think this is one of those tales that got a life of its own somewhere.
  9. wind_apparent
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    wind_apparent wind driven speed addict

    so this is a very interesting idea........every boat but the 18' skiff:p
  10. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Nope the Aussie 26 ;-)

    Define your own inspiration, then, Sam.

    This boat, in space frame, with non-related length, foil placement, etc., does not, to me, derive from the Aussie18.
  11. wind_apparent
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: boulder colorado

    wind_apparent wind driven speed addict

    no, its not an 18, not even close... 28 foot cat hull people getting bent about it being called one is a little funny to me thats all, we should just start a whole new thread (number 3, I think,) called "the 28ft Swiss foiling machine" then we could talk about that boat and where it seems to be taking the whole monofoiler scene.(its the most popular thread on here right now so it seems to be doing something for people) far as my personal inspiration, on my current 4meter monofoiler project, it was a lot of different boats, Obviously the Moth, and the Musto, and the Swift Solo, and the RS600ff, there is even a little A class cat in it, the sail plan is total "formula windsurfer" (demension polyant pxo5 sail material).......I love design evolution, nothing on my project is new or groundbreaking, but all the stolen ideas put together makes it a boat that hasn't been built yet by anyone else.....
  12. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Pictures, Bubba, pictures.

    Sounds like an interesting bowl of ingredients.

    I, for one, really enjoy photos of a boat being built, from concept to the first time on the water.

    So, shoot 'em up.

  13. wind_apparent
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: boulder colorado

    wind_apparent wind driven speed addict

    hang on, just finished some of the sketches (pencil and paper, wow), going to draw alittle more, then draw them up on "rhino osx" then a 1/4 model from mdf, foam, and epoxy/vereer, then a hull form male mold, then foam and carbon.......But I'll send out the sketches......:p
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Nice job of emulating Doug Lord. Simply looking for thngs to support your point-of-view on the 'net and disregarding the other available info.

    Unlike you and Lord, I speak from actual knowledge, not just secondhand info from the internet. In this instance it is you who is depending on "scuttlebutt", not from docks and bars but from the electronic ether.

    I had the plans for the Mull 27 many years before the Antrim/Ultimate 27 was ever heard of. Got them from Gary. In fact, I believe Jim used to list it on his site as a Mull/Antrim 27. Sure Jim did the mods to the boat, but the lineplan is out of Mull's office. I've done rig and foil mods to boats, but I sure don't then call it my design.

    The Ultimate 20 uses the hull from the Doug Hemphill designed Hotfoot 20. The first Hotfoot to be modified with a prod was done in the harbor I sailed in. That became the genesis for the Ultimate 20. Some Hotfoot 20s have had mods and sail in the U20 class, and even win major regattas.

    You can find these truths on your internet searches, if you actually want to know the truth.

  15. Meanz Beanz
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Still going personal I see, good form auld chap.
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