Foiler F1

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    From SA and Dusseldorf Boat Show:

    Andreas Fritsch 01/17/2012 – This weekend, the German designer Klaus Enzmann presents a futuristic Foiler cat that will sail over 40 knots
    In the scene of the speed sailing projects will be involved this year from a strong German team. The “Foiler F1″, a 5.50-meter-long cat that runs on two sides and a T-Foil Foils at the helm, the first weekend of the boot in Duesseldorf presented to the public. The completely built from carbon catalyst in the center cockpit offers one or two people and is not only more than 40 knots, but also be very easy to sail. This promises at least a designer and builder Klaus J. Enzmann, who wants to extensively test the boat in March on the Walchensee. The highlight of his FOIL: The position of the wings, which is crucial for a smooth and safe “flying” on the water surface is computer controlled. The innovative design will also go into mass production.

    The aim is to be ultimately, to collect the smaller F1 experience that allow us to build a large version. You should be able to fight for the speed record of a sailboat, currently holds the French team of Alain Thébault “L’Hydroptère” with 51.36 knots. The absolute record currently holds the surfer Rob Douglas with 55.65 knots.


    http://slsailing.com/gotwind/2012/01/18/speed-foils-german/

    http://www.enzmann.net/home_de.htm

    video from the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1jxaQd9POQ&feature=player_embedded

    ===========================
    My take, so far: it is a cat , not a tri but with what appears to be low volume, relatively low L/B ratio hulls. A tri configuration can give a low wetted surface , relatively high L/B ratio for pre-takeoff speed. Appears to have the facility to retract a foil. Foils are each equipped with wands like Osprey, Rave and a few other foilers. Neat design but I'm not convinced the cat configuration is a good one. Can't wait to see it sailing!

    click on image:
     

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  2. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    It might qualify as a tri because the main "hull" is providing lift with the rudder t foil. With nothing in the water but the foils when flying do all "hulls" count the same ? It certainly handles loads like a trimaran.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==================
    Not pre-takeoff. The catamaran configuration with both hulls in the water is more draggy that a single hull supporting the same weight before takeoff. The tri configuration helps the boat get to flying speed quicker. But depending on weight and power it might not matter too much.
    ---
    Check out the specs for the F1 compared to the Osprey: the Osprey has 2.3 times the SA, 1.3 times the weight and 1.4 times the beam. When a foiler has dual independent wands controlling the ride height on each side the greater the beam the less the foil loading. I'd bet on Osprey against the F1. The dihedral in the F1 arrangement could be an innovative answer if Kettermans criticism of t-foils is justified because the angled foils unload the vertical fins when the lee foil is lifting up and the windward foil is pulling down.Could be a good thing.

    F1 specs:

    Length 18 ft. / 5.5 m
    Width (when beaching) 12 ft. / 3.5 m
    (foilborne) 16 ft. / 5.0 m
    Sail area 150 sq.ft. / 14.0 m²
    Weight 306 lbs / 138,4 kg
    -----------------------

    Osprey Specs:

    Length 18' / 5.5m
    Beam 22' / 6.7m
    SA 350sq.ft. / 32.5sq.m
    Weight 400lb / 182 kg



    pix-1) Bradfields Osprey, 2) "Teaser" rendering of the F1:
     

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  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===================
    Another catamaran foiler with a center nacelle-but with rudders in each hull:

    pix-Hydroptere.ch:

    click on image--
     

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  5. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Not getting the lift though....these things are really hybrids. Cat on the way to the dock, tri when flying with the flock. Now the Hydropere CH? pictures I would call a cat with centerpod.
     
  6. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    subscribed to thread! :)
     
  7. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    Hull would probably be high and dry at rest. This makes it a cat. Not that it matters for a foiler.

    This is really just a revisit of the Hobie trifoiler / Windriver Rave. It combines T foils and a single sail.

    This is not to say that there is no room for improvement with this concept. If I were going down this path, I really would prefer J foils (based on Ketterman's findings). However, this has traditionally required more operating force than the flaps on a T foil.

    They do have an advantage in that their current scale allows much of the Moth foil development learning to transfer over pretty smoothly.

    Use of a computer assist in controlling foil flaps could make the product much more friendly. However, getting computer controls functional, reliable and low cost sounds tough.

    I think I will take the Missouri stance (show me) on this one.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    Kettermans findings and the performance of the Moth with Veal heel lead me to believe that these particular t-foils might be less draggy than the ones Ketterman specifically referenced: the dihedral allows these foils to unload the vertical fins when the lee foil is lifting up and the windward foil is pulling down.
    --------
    On the rendering below, I marked(in red) the estimated crew CG positions and CB-it doesn't seem right in terms of the boat sailing singlehanded-the weight is either too far forward or too far aft:
    click on image-
     

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  9. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    For all recent craft, the big driver in the choice has been the desire to go with the nice small wands instead of the large "feelers" of the trifoiler. That and the fact that no one has come up with a practical flapped J foil.

    It is a given that the wand is nicer and T foils are not bad.

    For me, I look at results. Optimizing T Foils for boat with 2 in front and one in back (I like "tri foiler" as a general description) just has not yet produced something with substantially better performance than the first of the breed (the Hobie product). This is kind of strange given all of the "improvements" in foil technology since Hobie dropped their foiler.
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================
    Greg Ketterman considers the Hobie trifoiler faster than the Rave and Bradfield
    thinks the Rave is the faster than the trifoiler. Bradfield thinks the new Osprey is the fastest small foiler he has designed. All four boats use forward main foils, with dual independent "feelers" for the trifoiler(limited altitude), and dual independent wands on the Rave and Osprey. It appears that the F1 is using dual independent wands as well. The problem with the Rave and Trifoiler is that they were heavy and didn't foil in under 10 knots of wind. Since much of the USA has wind less than 10 much of the time, that is a real problem trying to sell a boat that requires more wind to foil. I personally saw the Osprey foil in about 7-8 knots. The new F1 is the lightest of all four with one crew but has a relatively small amount of sail with the power to weight ratio of the Osprey probably being the best. Also, the wide beam of the Osprey unloads the foils, reducing drag. Top end of the two new boats and two old boats is high: the one that can reliably fly in the lightest air will(or should) be the winner.
    Looking forward to seeing sailing video of the F1.

    PS- the old Rave and the Hobie Trifoiler have both exceeded the top in-class speed of the Moth substantially but the Moth can fly in 6-8 knots of wind.
     
  11. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Has any one tried using T foils that can sweep back like a jet fighter wing? Having enough foil area to fly at low wind speeds means more drag when things pick up. The Hydroptere approach reduces area as speeds and wind increase but sweepback on t foils might help them reduce drag. While computer servo control can handle the transitions it opens up the auxiliary power questions. I'm wondering if the resulting delta shape might have some speed/lift benefits like a supersonic wing.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============
    I've never seen sweepback like you describe. But I have seen T-foils designed with telescoping foils-see the Pi 28 thread.
    T-foils vary their lift by the flap and changing the angle of incidence of the foil. For instance, you can physically "shift" gears from a high incidence/ max flap takeoff(light air) to a zero incidence zero flap angle for high speed.
     

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  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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