Foam cores !! fore and against !! time to share info again !!

tunnels · Jul 13, 2010

apex1 said: ↑

Was sitting with a main instructor of Westland Helicopters and Agusta Helicopters carbon fiber layup branches yesterday (in fact we sailed the past week together).

The books are more often than not written by armchair engineers. Impressive. Sometimes the output is 80% landfill... That is Aircraft industry!
The test panels of cored bottom have been 1 out of 18 coming out to sufficient properties. In a case happening quite recently.

I am by no means fighting against sandwich construction, but may I ask, where my Peers have you seen a similar (to Helicopter canopy or rotor producing) manufacturing setup in our industry? Not even I go that length.

Foam cores in cruising boats and yachts hulls are a crime! A violence of all proven seamanship and boatbuilding skills.

Foam cores in cruisers hulls have to be treated like childs abuse, lifelong in prison.

How can one (well aware of the weakness of his workforce, conditions, materials, and not knowing the max. stresses of useage) promote cores for a cruiser?
That is insane.
Again, have a nice read:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking_of_Bertram_630_Absolutely.htm
and don´t forget all the related articles!

I produce up to 46 meter boats at present (mixed matrix, VE resin), cores are (except for some parts on the super) not allowed.
The next generation will not even be done in VE anymore, we use EP in a massive layup, postcuring the entire hull / deck. Cored structures are not allowed in any of the parts, not even the sundeck awning.

According to our (five times crosswise calculated by indepentant NA´s) books, we will come out with a weight penalty of about 3 -5 % --------

I dare to laugh............

The average client has a hard day to decide between the 3600kW and the 5000kW installations. And we have a problem with 5% additional weight?
Then these senseless monsters sit at the moorings and look impressive. And none of the owners has ever takin them on a shake down run. Let alone a real cruise.

Ships have to stand sea conditions, for years and decades, and then some time.

WE,
the designers and builders have the non disputable responsibility of the lives on our craft. No cert. or class body takes away that duty. It is insane to risk a single life in case one would take the ads for true and go to sea with our vessels. Get it, we have it in our hands.

Leave the core crap on cruisers!

Racers, yes, they need to save every gram.

Äh, we processed 1800 metric tonnes of Epoxy and Ve resins in 2009, and (I did not know that) 0,8 tonnes of PVC foam as well. (thats a lot, I have to reduce that).

Richard
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Well i am confussed and possibly a lot of other people mite be as well .
Where do you get all or most of your information from that you write ??
Have you really ever had your face inside a mask , hands in gloves and hung on the end of any kind of any kind of gun be it a saturator , chopper gun , spray gun coupled to a pressure pot or even a air assisted gel coated with a heater ?.
You sound like the typical managment type that sits in a office ,barks orders and has shelves and draws of information that not one else is allowed to read .
Any novice reading some of the posts would throw there arms in the air and go jump off a cliff .
There have been occassions of really good useful stuff , then all of a sudden your drugs kick in and theres a load of jibberish .
Sorry people I gotta leave this site and put it away for a while .

waikikin · Jul 13, 2010

tunnels said: ↑

I hear exactly what you are saying and have been and seen just what you are talking about . In my experiances Management wants shooting . Even most of the factory management including the forman are as useless as **** on a bull and thats where all athe problems stem from .
All the places i have worked as a laminating shop manager i always spent at least one day every week working on the floor , overalls on hanging on a grinder , hanging on a chopper gun , spraying gel coat , waxing moulds and or general cleaning etc etc I would never exspect any of the guys i work with to do any job i had not done or would not do myself . Sitting in a office chatting on the phone , yapping to the office girls and hob nobbing is not my thing !.
We also introduced Glide time and tea breaks and lunch was anytime during the day with not at set or fixed times , this worked really well and never got abused ever . Before anything like that was introduced i sat a talked to everyone and we discused it and it was there choice if every one want it or not .
Laminating and laying cores i was always there walking around watching and seeing first hand what everyone was doing and how the job was being done .
Its also a good way to see first hand what everyones capabilities are right from the leading hand to the newest recruits . When you see a weakness in some area then you are able to do something about upskilling and looking for a better way .
The maintinance and care of equipment being used was a hot issue as well , well used but well cared for gear always works and keeps on working so nothing breaks down partway through any job .The last half hour of each day was devoted to collecting all tools and gear cleaning , oiling , changing discs , wiping and cleaning everything ready for the next day , also talking about the work schedual for the next days work . Also chatting amongst ourselves to see if there was any one that was likely to have a day off work for any reason .We all had families and there are times when guys wanted a day to do what ever , being honest and up front was never a issue and the loyalty shown was really great .
Companies get what they give ! if nothing is given then what else can you exspect . It carries all the way down the chain of comand to the shop floor .I came from the floor and seen and listen to the rude and abusive comments from other trades within the company many times. When i finally got to management level i was able to do something about it and i did !.

Simply put you get what you give !
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Hi tunnels, you sound like a good bloke to work with. All the best from Jeff.

Herman · Jul 13, 2010

If you go, tunnels, would you still care to answer my questions before you go? I am here to learn as well!

tunnels · Jul 13, 2010

waikikin said: ↑

Hi tunnels, you sound like a good bloke to work with. All the best from Jeff.
Click to expand...

I have been fortunate over later years to be able to have a foot in both camps ,one with the guys on the floor doing the work and making things , second management and seeing first hand how useless and stupid some of the upper management really are , It gets worse the further up the ladder you go in just about all cases .
Thirdly i have rejected specifications and technical drawing and refused to making things till proper research and written specs were certified by someone with a single brain cell between the ears .
I cant drive a computer cad program but came from a paper and pencil back ground . The other hidden card i have up my sleeve is marine design and systems .
I believe strongly in the phlosophy that a company is only as good as the people that do the work
Not the people that work there !! Theres a big differance !!

tunnels · Jul 13, 2010

Herman said: ↑

If you go, tunnels, would you still care to answer my questions before you go? I am here to learn as well!
Click to expand...

Yes ,but i have lots happening round me right at this moment that i need to concentrate on so will be back after a few days possibly.
This is a great site and theres a wealth of really good stuff but takes a little while to sort through with patchs of not so interesting stuff. I will always answer as honestly as i can ! If I dont know i will say so some one is bound to have an answer .

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Foam cores !! fore and against !! time to share info again !!

tunnels Previous Member

waikikin Senior Member

Herman Senior Member

tunnels Previous Member

tunnels Previous Member

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