Flapping inverting foil (patent pending)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by frogger1225, Sep 7, 2014.

  1. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    http://youtu.be/oJil5zJlmM8

    It may not look impressive, that's because I bent the oar arms at the hing trying to go faster....

    As you can see from video below, the amount of energy transferred is huge !

    http://youtu.be/tDRmurtKGsk

    Oscillating foils are just as efficient and less complicated than propellers...just my opinion!

    So who's interested? :)
     
  2. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

  3. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    Myark,
    Thanks for the information and links. I will definitely investigate this. I have filed for patent and have no worry about disclosure. After thorough analysis and testing, I am confident of its novelty, usefulness and performance.
     
  4. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    I assume you are implying that the work is strenuous. Quite to the contrary. The force exerted for the video was similar to dead-lifting (then benchpressing) about 20 pounds. The rowing mechanism was not strong enough to handle when I exerted significant power of my 50+ yo muscles(150# benchpress) and I ended up "twisting" the 1/2" conduit pipe at the rotation point. Currrently working on beefing up the strength of the rowing mechanism.

    The efficiency is ~80% according to rough calculations.

    If your back is that bad, I can replace the frame chair with a nice Lazy-Boy :)

    Yes, future vision is to include leg power mechanism.

    Here is another vid which using the blade from the boat after cutting it at the twist line...thanks for watching.

    http://youtu.be/tDRmurtKGsk
     
  5. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 15,150
    Likes: 910, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    A guy in a kiddie pool is not a particularly convincing proof. What are you comparing it to and how? Quantify your claims to be credible.
     
  6. Jeremy Harris
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 978
    Likes: 59, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 711
    Location: Salisbury, UK

    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but how the heck can you patent something that has at least 100 years of prior art?

    What's more, dozens (if not hundreds) of HPBs have used exactly the same principle over the years. They have even been raced in HPB races, more than 20 years ago.

    It's not that efficient, less so than a well designed prop or paddle wheel, and there are even commercial systems available that uses the same core principle.

    My understanding is that for something to have a valid patent it has to be novel, and inventive. Sadly this is neither, it is a crude re-invention of several existing, or pre-existing propulsion systems.

    My advice would be to tell you patent agent to hold fire and do some simple web searches to find all the many pre-existing variants of this principle. If you don't, all you will be doing is paying for a someone else o point out that this has been done before, so has no patentable value.
     
  7. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    I'll leave the comparison to you. I shall provide quantification of kiddie pool video.

    Blade size 9"x12"
    Blade Arm from blade to pivot: 30"
    Estimated power input: roughly 1/4 hp (~75# force applied to blade arm at 18" (not a young kid anymore)
    Sweep frequency 1/6 Hz
    Sweep speed 1.5 feet/sec
    Resultant flow estimated at 4 mph

    Resultant rate of water accelerated estimated at 9 cubic feet per second
    ~540 pounds accelerated by 4 mph per second is roughly 1/5 hp

    ESTIMATED efficiency 80%
     
  8. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    Principles are not patented. Implementation is. and this has been thoroughly patent searched by myself personally. I welcome any arguments presented in factual format. Simply claiming that this doesn't work is not respectable. The only truthful claim you somewhat imply is that others have tried and failed.
     
  9. BMcF
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 1,038
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 361
    Location: Maryland

    BMcF Senior Member

    So..you've patented the concept of "sculling"?

    Interesting.
     
  10. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    I brought this quote in from another thread. One issue is the efficiency claim that all proppers forget is that a static(no variable pitch or similar to function) prop is 80+% only applies to limited range of rpm. Fish don't have props and are 80%+ efficient. This is a new way of thinking that has to be learned.

    BTW my last boat had 4 props along with about 60 jets on topside
     
  11. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    If you are skilled at the ancient art of sculling (canoeing merit badge) and the need to "flip the paddle over", you will understand the need to "catch" the vortex. This blade addresses the reason why you can't just swing a paddle back and forth like everyone else has tried.
     
  12. myark
    Joined: Oct 2012
    Posts: 690
    Likes: 16, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 57
    Location: Thailand

    myark Senior Member

    Hi Frogger
    I am sorry I said you may not post again and are wrong, it shows you have determination with your idea.
    Have you spent much on patents so far as I file my own and can help you with any advice as patent attorneys normally suck inventor’s blood knowing their ideas will never go anywhere...?
     
  13. frogger1225
    Joined: Aug 2014
    Posts: 78
    Likes: 1, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 12
    Location: Pennsylvania

    frogger1225 Junior Member

    I finally found a semi good reference to scullling...
    http://www.jesterinfo.org/howtoscull.html

    It is very counter-intuitive at first glance (just as in my blade principle) but it works way better than doing it the expected way.
     
  14. Manfred.pech
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 596
    Likes: 82, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 319
    Location: EU

    Manfred.pech Senior Member


  15. lucdekeyser
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 152
    Likes: 8, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 51
    Location: Belgium

    lucdekeyser Senior Member

Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.