Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

[Boston]

I'm not so sure the Kites would have the record without the trench. Seems its vital that they be on the smoothest water possible that and the sand berm is really helping them as well.

If this is the case then get these guys out on open water in "similar conditions" and then they will have earned it. Which looks like what the problem is that a lot of people are having about this particular record as its made so far removed from the conditions everyone else deals with that its just not looking very credible. Its as much of an ethics question as anything. Poorly written rules I guess.

cheers
B

 

[cardsinplay]

I see that you are still struggling with the concept, B.

That's unfortunate. Moreover... it doesn't change a thing. Truly, you should be directing your rant at the WSSRC instead of wide open air space on these pages, as there's little anyone here can do, even if they cared to do so.

If you collect yourself a bit, invest some serious dough from your pocketbook and dedicate some very real personal time to the cause, you may just get a few nice people on the WSSRC Board to, at least, listen. I'm very sure that it won't get any further than that, but you can walk away knowing that you did what you could.

Everything here, I'm afraid, is simply white noise and not a whole lot more.

 

[Boston]

no struggle at all. Just curious as to the equality of the competitors and there ethics in justifying the issue of "similar conditions" mentioned in the rules. All the rude responses in the world to nothing to justify what to many appears to be cheating. Obviously I'm not the only one who sees this and I'm sure the ruling body is being inundated with complaints.

January 5, 2009 Australia’s Macquarie Speed Sailing Team is seeking ratification of a new World Sailing Speed Record set on December 19, thereby claiming the title of the world’s fastest sailing boat. Macquarie Innovation was timed over the 500m qualifying course at 48.57 knots and recorded speeds in excess of 51 knots during the 20 second run on December 19, 2008. It is expected that the final ratified speed will be reduced to 48.15 knots due to tidal influences experienced on the course – albeit still the fastest speed ever recorded by a sailing boat. What makes the attempt so significant is the boat’s remarkably efficient use of wind energy – the speeds were recorded in just 17 kt winds, and when the team gets the 20 knot winds it has been waiting for, the outright record of 50.57 kts set by French kite-boarder Alexandre Caizergues in Namibia on October 4, 2008 will almost certainly be bettered.

so again the question arises concerning "similar conditions"

how fast could a kite go in 17 knots of wind eh
probably not 48.15 knots or 2.83x wind speed
so far it looks like the best a kite can do is something like 1.33x wind speed or less then half of the Australian teem
not a very good showing in terms of engineering achievements

 

[P Flados]

The ditch angle to the wind does matter. However, the wind speeds are high enough to overcome this. If a less efficient Kite can go 55.65 in 40, a more efficient boat can go faster using the same wind angle. This is just simple physics. Having more angle may not be optimum for a max speed run, but it does not stop the most efficient craft from coming out on top.

Comparable is comparable in the sense that it is on water WITH adjustments for current if applicable. Boston, you say that boats run in open water. That is a bunch of junk. They find the smoothest possible water with the wind they need. Go look at the Sailrocket and MI videos, both up close to land. Again, if I if could pull off the impossible, make a run just downwind of my local jetty with a hurricane providing 60 knots wind while riding in a 2X wind speed boat with WSSRC watching, it would be a record that would stand for quite a while. Just tell me what is so different.

Ultimate word records allow practical choices. Land speed records are on salt flats, not highways. How many good salt flats are around. The 760 mph Thrust SST does not look much like the car in my driveway and I do not care.

The ISAF made a 2005 decision that said no to the Kiters for the world record. The WSSRC and others were all suitably embarrassed when the kiters went over 50 knots first. At that time, wind surfers had held the outright record for some time. They really do not fit what I would call a boat either. They had also been using a trench. Eventually the ISAF gave in and admitted the obvious. The announcement is at http://www.sailing.org/news/26447.php

The WSSRC does not claim that the board is a boat. They do admit that kiting is sailing. This is just common sense and any attempt to pick one technology and rule it out would undermine the position that they ratify the Worlds Fastest sailing records.

Go look up all of their rules and their past documents supporting their decisions before talking about "poorly written" and "cheating". Their rules can get downright painful to comply with at times, but if you follow all of them, your claim to a fair title is pretty solid. The only rules that are iffy are the GPS thing previously noted, and the 30 day notice and duration of attempt type stuff. These rules were made with good intentions. They make sure that no would would get the record without absolute proof. However, the flip side is that a record becomes tainted if some else is obviously faster and it is just a "silly rule compliance thing" that lets the slower guy stay at the top of the list (actually the fastest is at the bottom they way they show it - kind of backward I would say).

 

[Boston]

I didn't realize how slow these kites are over the mile course

The WSSR Council announces ratification of a new World Record:

Kitesail Nautical Mile
Rob MUNRO. GBR
30th October 2006
35.65 knots at Walvis Bay, Namibia.
Board was a"Cape Doctor Custom" with a 10m Naish Raven kite.

Previous record was 35.44 kts by Dirk HANEL GER at Walvis Bay, Namibia in Oct 2005

John Reed
Secretary to the WSSR Council

Comparable is comparable in the sense that it is on water WITH adjustments for current if applicable.

Flados the rules specifically mention comparable conditions it does not limit the comparison to only one parameter. Once again your stretching the honesty of the interpretation. If you just got in from a day out on the water and someone asked you about the conditions would you answer "it was wet"

Thank you for the suggestion Cards ( regardless of how rudely you might have presented it ) I think I will make a plea to the WSSR that they specify "open" or natural bodies of water and include a definition of Open and natural in there next updates as well as stipulate specifics as to "conditions" . Thats actually a great idea, then maybe this race can get back to the land of credible contestants. ( and yes I just read the rules top to bottom for the 500 meter the one mile and the open water divisions and they are amazingly sparse, try reading the F-1 rule book sometime as an example of specific rules )

and no Flados the cheating comment comes from the radically differing conditions the kiters created for themselves by running in a ditch as apposed to everyone else who has to run in natural conditions. The sand berm, the wave cancellation system, things like that appear to be cheating to a lot of folks when these options are not available to all boats involved. Develop a universal course fair to all contestants and sure its fair but build one specifically for one type or class and not so much.

It would seem pretty obvious that by running in a ditch designed specifically to benefit kiters that they have created an unfair advantage in attaining a record which encompasses all categories IE the outright speed record for any sail powered craft. It is this unfair advantage that is in question and it is this unfair advantage that should be addressed by the ISAF/WSSRC. The rules specify "similar conditions"
cheers
B

the issue is similar to the F-1 racing issue of suspension assisted steering
the ruling body there eventually banned it because the technology was so expensive it precluded all teams from employing it and it gave those teams that did an unfair advantage.

 

[P Flados]

Kites are not "slow" over the mile. It is just that the nautical mile record does not have the prestige that makes it worth a lot of effort. For the Kiters, there is so much focus on increasing their best at the 500 meters, that they probably just have not really chased the mile. The mile is usually chased when a given technology has pretty well pushed the outright as far as they can and someone wants to get either another record or a record that the fastest guy just hasn't bothered to chase.

When kites are trying to be efficient in lower winds, they do not do all that bad. If they did not have the winds that Luderitz gives them, they would probably have put more focus on efficiency. Eventually, they will have to do this anyway. For now, they go real fast in high wind at much risk. FYI, it looks like Rob is healing OK

 

[Munter]

The bottom of the picture above was missing. It appears to show rapidly shallowing water presumably with a beach very near by.

So does Macquarie Innovation deserve praise or to be called "cheats" for running their unquestionably efficient vessel so close to the shore?

Hydroptere can't get in to this location so should the the Macquarie Innovation results be discarded?

Is a record set 1 m from the beach at Sandy Pt ok because it is a natural land form?

Speedsailors have always looked to get the best set of conditions for their runs. Even the Hydroptere crew seemed to look for an offshore wind in a bay for the footage I saw of their recent speed attempts. Weymouth has been popular since speedsailing became a discipline because of the sheltered water and suitable wind direction. Can Hydroptere run down the speed course there? Should all records set there also be discarded?

I think trying to impose conditions such as those proposed above will lead to a less equitable arrangement than currently exists.

 

[cardsinplay]

Never mind, B. You just keep baying at the moon and let us know when that works for you.

Good grief

 

[P Flados]

The bottom of the picture above was missing. It appears to show rapidly shallowing water presumably with a beach very near by.

So does Macquarie Innovation deserve praise or to be called "cheats" for running their unquestionably efficient vessel so close to the shore?

Yes Hydroptere looked for sheltered locations, go review their web site. Yes MI ran just feet off shore. Sailrocket was a little further off of the beach, but not by much. Yes the wind surfers and even Longshot used the French Trench.

I am not sure that the obvious facts & common sense are going to convince everyone. In another day & time we would probably be equally frustrated in trying to explain why the earth is not flat.

 

[Doug Lord]

Hydroptere-Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

I want to thank Boston and Randy for presenting an excellent analysis of how these records are achieved and the shortcomings in the administration of the record attempts. You guys have shed new light on the matter and I, for one, appreciate your effort. Thanks, guys!

 

[cardsinplay]

They haven't shed any new light.

All this stuff has been getting kicked around for the past few years on several other fora, as well as between speed sailing nut cases in private emails. The guys on this thread haven't solved anything and won't because there's nothing to solve.

The WSSRC system works and the numbers of different claims and ratifications for the Outright Record over the last several years proves that point. The chase for the best speed has never been so fertile and it looks to stay that way, simply because everyone is getting their shot. If the so-called proposals to make things equitable were to be enacted, then the whole thing would digress to a parade of the same kinds of boats with little of the really juicy aspects of watching differing technologies have a go and getting there.

Some of you guys are in search of a grayishly paste-like pablum party and I, for one, am glad that it is so wide open. It's like a really tasty, multi-colored Bouillabaisse and there's no reason to change the menu right now.

This thread has become a wheel spinning exercise and nothing more with some folks so gripped-out on the vacuous that it has gotten funny.

 

[Gary Baigent]

hey lifelong members of the flat earth society, what's to cheat in an open lagoon, or in a sheltered bay. or behind an isthmus or a reef - all are in open water?
Trenchers are cheaters.
End of story.

 

[powerabout]

I'm surprised you can get a speed record with a GPS.
I'd like to see how they prove the gps was acurate at the time to do that and what differential data they used.

BTW Isnt an ice boat the fastest sail BOAT?
boards should just be called a wind powered device

 

[Boston]

they are also the fastest sail powered "craft"

the rules specify on water and not on ice as well but isn't there a microscopic layer of water between the skate and the ice so in this sense the ice "boats" would qualify. Same for the requirement of there being x depth under the boat equal to 10cm or half the beam, the ice "boats" are on a lake aren't they and ice is just another phase of water right? is phase mentioned in the rules?

3. THE COURSE
The record shall be established over a minimum of 500 m on water (not ice).

same type of argument the kiters are foisting off on the sailing community
no more and no less ridiculous
an "ice" boat actually travels on skates that have a thin layer of "water" between the skate and the ice, so they are not actually "on" ice but instead "on" water which is in turn "on" Ice which is again "on" the water beneath
therefor given that the term "on" is not defined it may be determined in any way conducive to the record breaking attempt.

the rules clearly say

The Course of 500 m PDF Print E-mail

1. GENERAL
The purpose of these rules is to enable attempts to be made on Sailing Speed Records in any part of the world under comparable conditions. They do not form the conditions of any prize or trophy, nor are they sailing instructions.

given that the ditch kiters cant even come close to these speeds in "similar conditions" as everyone else races in, its pretty obvious that although they certainly deserve a place in the books they cant compete for tittles in all inclusive classes if they race in dissimilar conditions, classes such as overall top speed.

Garry, agreed natural water is natural water but digging a trench with a sand berm to break the wind and employing wave cancellation machines is obviously cheating

Doug, I was pretty open to listening to what the kiters side was when I first heard about them being excluded from the rule books for those first years and I was in favor of them being allowed to compete, but this business of digging a ditch, blocking the wind and eliminating the variables everyone else must contend with looks like a clear breach of the rules.

1. GENERAL
The purpose of these rules is to enable attempts to be made on Sailing Speed Records in any part of the world under comparable conditions. They do not form the conditions of any prize or trophy, nor are they sailing instructions.

Cards, ever wonder why your down on points so far into the game, your consistently amusing attitude might just end up doing us all a favor.

Blue, congrats on your achievements but unless you race without the wind break without the wave cancellation machinery and on open water like everyone else your not going to get the recognition this deserves. If the ditch really is so insignificant to the speeds at hand then why not settle it by going back and making a few runs in "open" water. Or does asking you to run the same water that everyone else somehow place you at a disadvantage and if so, could you explain to us what that disadvantage is.

my recommendation to the ruling committee will be to have a specific set of rules for the ultimate speed record of all classes. I believe it should exclude artificial bodies of water which still leaves a huge variety of venues that are presently hosting exactly the wide variety of vessels you mention and it should include the language specifying "similar conditions"

obviously this row has been on since the ruling body revised there ruling against kites but failed to foresee them building ditches, wave cancellation devises and wind breaks

sorry but its pretty obvious that this constitutes cheating

while I am all for kiters achievements being included in the books I am also for there being some consideration of a level playing field.

as I said before, nothing is stopping them from running a ditch in a wind tunnel, its not in the rules

k I'm out I have a bachelor party to attend ( not mine thank Gwod )

 

[powerabout]

makes me think if you got an ice boat up to 60kts and then went onto the water it might still plane?
Is there any rule about having your wind thing towed to the 500m line?
How about finding a 500m water fall as its a one way speed record?

PS I have heard Russel Long is going to put some effort into a new Longshot