Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 2,937
    Likes: 90, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    CT249 - try getting drunk - that's the only chance that you'll have of being rid of your seriously troubled pedantry. And Boston, quit replying to him; it's a complete waste of time.
     
  2. Blue Leader
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 43
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 7
    Location: Cape Cod

    Blue Leader Junior Member

    Boston my friend, before you respond further, please go back and read the last 15 replys. Please!

    CT 249 just dissected your statements and counter statements, piece by piece in front of all of us.

    If this had been a fight, the referee would have stopped it!

    Where I come from when one gets beaten as bad as you just did, he accepts defeat with a smile because the defeat left no doubt as to who was superior.

    You gave it your all and lost. There is honor in that.

    You were not in Luderitz for the WR attempt and you most likely dont know anybody that was.

    You were not aboard Hydroptere for her WR attempts and most likely dont know anybody that was.

    You have never made an attempt to set a world speed sailing record. You have never held a world speed sailing record.

    The governing body of speed sailing (WSSRC), Sailrocket and Hydroptere have all accepted that kites are currently the fastest. Iceboats, under the current rules, although really cool and amazing dont qualify for the Outright World Speed Sailing Record at this time.

    I believe its time for you to reconsider your position or else go and start your own speed sailing organization where you can choose the rules that you wish to have or not have.
     
  3. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,670
    Likes: 74, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Gary

    II was not being pedantic - I was replying to Boston's points and pointing out that many of the points he raised were factually wrong.

    Boston made claims like "ice yachters haven't there place in the registry of fastest wind powered "boat" after all they were invented by the coast guard so they must be boats."

    The reality is simple - the Coast Guard did not invent iceboats (as a simple Google search and the Scooter Club site I linked to show), therefore Boston's claim is wrong.

    Boston also claimed "actually Cheesy this latest round was about the term boat or vessel. Neither apply to a surf board with a sail on it."

    In fact, surfboards with sails on them ARE classed as vessels in NZ, Australia, Canada and at least parts of the UK. Go to Brialii and Austlii and google in sailboard.

    Once again, Boston has tried to support his case with a false claim.

    Dunno why you reckon it's pedantic to point out false claims.
     
  4. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
    Posts: 315
    Likes: 12, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 189
    Location: NZ

    Cheesy Senior Member

    It is quite funny that Bostons argument is very much in the style of another poster on this board.... ie taking one or two data points and ignoring any other that does not agree
     
  5. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,670
    Likes: 74, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    We could get back to the subject when you stop making claims that are factually wrong.

    I understand your point perfectly well. We've probably all understood it from the very first time you said it. You didn't have to do things like invent hundreds of spectators watching some iceboat race (when there's no evidence there were hundreds of them) to support your point.

    The reply some of us make is that speed record attempts have traditionally been held in sheltered waters - sometimes naturally sheltered, sometimes sheltered by man-made breakwaters. Perfect natural conditions do occur but only in a few places, therefore creating ditches creates more areas of "comparable" conditions. Small boat record chasers thought that the use of artificial shelter was fine, until the boards made their own.

    Does this favour smaller craft? Yes, but sailing in open water favours the larger craft. Each type has its strengths and weaknesses. Do I like the ditches? Not much, but the fact that I don't like them doesn't mean that the committee is wrong and that those who use them are "cheaters". Also, my feelings may be different if I wasn't lucky enough to have a natural speed course within reach.

    About "sure but am I right about the law in all the rest".

    I did read your post incorrectly. Distracted by what seem to be faces blowing raspberries, I read it as "sure but I am right about the law in all the rest".

    The point remains that sailboards ARE classed as vessels in several significant English-speaking sailing countries, therefore your point that the term "vessel" doesn't apply to a "surf board with a sail on it" is wrong.

    ISAF's site says that they had concerns about the safety of kites so they didn't want to recognise their records. Looks like the kiters then proved that those safety concerns (in speed sailing) were false, so ISAF allowed them in - no big conspiracy, just simple good sense.


    BTW what's with the "I thought we were talking racing" line??? We were. The Scooters, developed from the Bellport boats that were the subject of your link, are racing craft.

    Oh, and to find about how at least one of the old iceboat speed claims was mathematically wrong, all you have to do is read the Bob Dill article I linked to. It's really quite simple.
     
  6. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    factually wrong?
    wow
    cheaters and liars
    takes about five seconds to prove my facts kids

    are you guys saying there is no/has never been an artificial berm at luderitz
    are you guys saying there is no/has never been a chop killer at luderitz
    are you guys saying that kiteboards have always been accepted by the WSSR
    are you guys saying that iceboats are not the outright fastest sail powered craft

    :D

    go to the Ludiritz site and look at the first two films
    the first shows a berm
    the second shows a fence in the water
    and as we all know boards weren't approved by the WSSR until very recently

    whats up with that eh
    is it that the facts are wrong or are you guys simply having a hard time admitting them?

    I believe someone put it best when they said
    if at first you don't succeed, move the goal posts

    if your going to be stretching the rules to the degree you have, then you also must admit that its less of a stretch to allow the iceboats than it was to allow the kiteboards, at least they're boats and there is no doubt they are the fastest outright sail powered craft.

    one thing this thread does prove beyond any reasonable doubt
    what poor sportsman some people are
     
  7. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,670
    Likes: 74, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Re "one thing this thread does prove beyond any reasonable doubt - what poor sportsman some people are"

    Yeah - I can't believe that some people are such bad sportsmen that they'll call people who follow the rules "cheaters", and slag off the committee that made the rules.

    You are wrong in one more way, though. It does take more than five seconds to "prove" some of your facts - because no one can prove stuff that isn't true.

    If the weather's right for a speed attempt, hopefully I'll be able to go down to the perfect natural speedsailing spot 12 hours from me this winter, to try to convert an unofficial class speed record to an official one. Being a good sportsman, I'm glad that people in other places, who aren't lucky enough to live near a perfect natural speedsailing spot, will be able to sail in comparable conditions in a trench near them.

    And if someone comes along in a 60 footer and tries to beat the 4 to 20 footers - well, they'll just have to deal with big-boat conditions just like big boats have always had to do. That's what happens when you try to win by being bigger - you gotta cop the problems that come with being big, as well as the positives.
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Ya I cant believe that some folks will stretch the rules so far as to be so easily considered cheaters.

    what is kinda funny is that these same folks apparently aren't recognizing iceboats as the fastest wind powered vehicles, at something like twice the speed of the next nearest competitors.

    also pretty lame when these same cheaters are so out of touch as to be incapable of even remotely addressing the issues that have led so many people to question there integrity

    the, if at first you don't succeed, move the goal posts, mentality

    Oh and thanks
    I just won a bet I had with a friend that the next post wouldn't even remotely address the relevant issues

    namely
    Its pretty obvious that nether the carrot or the stick approach is going to illicit any form of intelligent response. I've been involved in a lot of sports programs and its true what they say, once a cheater, always a cheater. Its not often but cheating usually gets you banned from the sport for good and for good reason. I'm not surprised ( actually won a buck ) that CT didn't address a single relevant issue in his last. The facts stand for themselves and its those facts that seem to most irk people like him, obviously ignoring the primary tenants of sportsmanlike conduct is central to some peoples victory dance.

    the carrot
    the stick
    in either case I guess there was no real chance of discussing the realities of bias within some peoples interpretations of the rules

    if your allowing surfboards and chop killers as well as ditches and wind modifications then you also have to allow ice boats. In which case it is they and not the ditchers who are the clear and undisputed winners.
     
  9. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 1,634
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 349
    Location: Beaconsfield Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    This is pathetic, I thought this thread was about HYDROPTERE !
     
  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    thank you and, it is
    then someone came along and claimed a surfboard was the fastest sailboat

    maybe now that we have settled how ridiculous that claim is we can continue

    Hydropter is the fastest sailboat in the world
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eJgsiS3xH8
    congratulations teem Hydropter

    now can we please get back to the thread topic
     
  11. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I recall an issue with cavitation that was mentioned several times, its an interesting issue that the configuration of the foils on Hydropter might be subject to cavitation once it gets over a certain speed.

    might be a polite entry back onto topic

    cheers
    B
     
  12. P Flados
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 601
    Likes: 33, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 390
    Location: N Carolina

    P Flados Senior Member

    Two points:

    1. I do not believe anyone has every claimed that ice boats are not capable of going very very fast. The questions as to any record status are well documented (given the lack of officiating organization and the concerns about measurement accuracy), but again they go very fast. We all know that speed sailing on a hard surface is very different than on a soft surface and in no way comparable. We all know that this issue was brought up as a distraction and has no real meaning to this topic. This particular horse has been beaten for so long and hard that it is becoming a thin brown stain on a well tread path. Can we leave the ice boaters to their sport and leave them out of this discussion.

    Please, Please, Please.

    2. Yes it would be nice to move on to a discussion of the big bad foiling speed sailing boat with the name at the top of this thread.

    A while back (11/21/10), I added post 578 (copied below). I really do think that scale (i.e. BIG) may have allowed the foiler to go fast even with some real interesting phase change action (i.e. cavitation) of the water flowing past the heavily loaded foil. Come on all you guys that love to dissect the details, take a look and tell us what you think was going on:


    Post 578:

    I was reviewing the record run video and noted something I missed my first couple of dozen viewings.

    In the world of speedsailing boats, foil ventilation or cavitation (two different but similar issues), has probably been the biggest barrier to increased speeds. The foil surface in discussion can be a surface piercing hydrofoil, a dagger board, or even a rudder.

    When I was looking at the 10 sec-25 sec range of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ-gdqo35os you can really see what is going on under the surface near the leeward foil. It looks like they are getting a lot of ventilation, but it is occurring just behind and above the foil instead of at the foil surface. When the flashes of white come & go, I do not see any boat motion indicating a big loss of lift from the ventilation. I am wondering if the separation of the ventilation from the foil makes it OK, or if they are actually transitioning into something close to super-cavitation?
     
  13. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Ya this was the issue I was hoping to bring back into the conversation although I'm not sure what you mean by super-cavitation unless your talking about Berny's principal which I always thought was just called cavitation. A pressure induced phase change. The solution seems like it would be a wider thinner foil spreading out the pressure over a larger area, but then you get into drag issues. That and the interaction of these foils is so dynamic that the pressure is changing so fast that some cavitation is almost unavoidable. I just watched the record run again and I agree there seems to be no loss of lift during the times the flashes that seem to be cavitation appear on the foils. Seems like it might induce some drag but not so much that its an issue for all that power = its a huge boat.

    Something tells me they are working on this one as there primary source for higher speeds which why I think its a far better topic of discussion than our last.

    Ventilation is a whole nother animal but I've often wondered if it wouldn't help the boarders out to find a way to passively ventilate there boards. Might be worth carving out a few experiments and see if there is a loss in friction in there somewhere.

    cheers
    B
     
  14. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 2,937
    Likes: 90, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    If you look closely at the leeward foil. the leading edge is always in clear water, no white, and a lot of the aerated water is coming from the fences, notably the couple at or near the surface as the waves pass through; the lower sections are always running deep and clear. Also. Hydroptere is sailing so fast, she is BEATING the aerated stuff; sure you can see this astern and immediately behind the trailing edge but obviously they have got a very refined foil where the majority of the wok is being done by the forward sections alone. A slower boat would have the trailing ventilation, aeration, cavitation, whatever you like, creeping or suddenly washing out the whole foil and burying the platform. This doesn't occur; Hydroptere runs straight and level. Got to hand it to the team with the world's fastest soft water boat.
     

  15. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,097
    Likes: 39, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    After reading through 53 pages of this Twaddle, I fell into a bemused state
    and started daydreaming of a spaceSHIP, with a huge sail, powered up by the Solar Wind. Say 99.9*C. :rolleyes:
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.