Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

might be because other speed sailing groups are made up of fewer people

I would think if you guys were all that confident you would welcome a review of the modifications to the site, something got you nervous concerning external speed enhancing modifications to the "natural wind" and "comparable conditions" thats got you worried maybe?

 

Boston, I believe you`re making an assumption with the following statement, and it is not based on any factual knowledge of the effort these guys put into it.
"What makes me question this particular venue is that with no comparable improvements in technology on the kiters part what is it thats driving speeds to record breaking levels?"

Are you absolutely sure there has been no advancement in board design, fin design, kite design, line thickness, harness design, footstrap positions, and sailor`s technique and fitness levels, over the last year ?
Yes Luderitz has produced a large number of speeds in excess of 50knots, and you have a very valid point that the site`s conditions need to be queried and understood more clearly, if only to learn from it and see if comparable sites are available, or could be modified (within the rules) to produce more speedsailing venues capable of providing perfect conditions.
I believe Sebastian Cattelan discovered the spot a few years ago while competing at Walvis Bay, and found that Luderitz 2nd lagoon had a perfect wind angle (for kiters) compared to Walvis Bay, with very shallow water, which works for kites but no other sailing craft - at the time it was even too shallow for windsurfers. (And I recall them moaning that it was unfair the kiters had a spot they couldn`t use - seems real life is actually unfair at times).
I think that the wind angle and the consistently strong winds is what makes Luderitz what it is, in fact If the WSSRC had not imposed a min. depth rule at the request of all the disgruntled non-kiting speedsailing competitors, they would not have dug the ditch (at an unnecessary expense) nor would they (ironically) have the sand berms that you are now concerned about. I am sure that they had to work very hard just to get permission from the Namibian authorities to dig the trench, as it is a natural area, and most likely had to return it to it`s natural state after the event - this was all to satisfy a new rule imposed on them by those who feared they had an unfair advantage called ground effect, which despite attempts by many skilled engineering-brained individuals, could not factually be proven to have actually enhanced their speeds.
I believe this has slowed them down more, as very shallow water has less chop than deeper water, even up against an embankment.
Now that the water depth is sufficient to allow windsurfers, it`s interesting to see that the fastest windsurfer was 5 knots slower than Finian Maynards 49.09 knots set at the French trench - I believe this has more to do with the wind angle than any other factor - the course may be too deep for windsurfers. This is why you are never going to get your desired open water race between all competitors on an equal course - each craft has their own perfect conditions. You might well find that Hydroptere is slow at the wind angles that suit kites, and vice versa.
Regarding berms and chop-killer devices - these have never been in question at previous record attempts - Bjorn Dunkerbeck had a line of bouys which he tried in open water, and the French Trench has always been accepted by the WSSRC, which has it`s own sand berm on either side - it`s what happens when you dig a hole.
Since the title of this thread relates to a peak speed (Hydroptere - Fastest Sailboat on the Planet! 61 knots (70.1 mph) Peak Speed) it is interesting to note that the kiters have been claiming similar top speeds for a few years now, unofficially of course since hand-held gps data is not ratified by the WSSRC, in light of this I don`t think folks should be stunned that Hydroptere`s record had to fall sooner or later, and because there are a group of dedicated kiters putting all their collective effort into it, it is also not surprising that more than one has done it.

 

what is surprising though is that so many of the fastest times all came from the same location, a location that was heavily modified specifically to benefit a certain type of craft. Which obviously caused a huge ruckus of complaints of cheating when Other craft, particularly the larger vehicles, will not be able to modify the type of water they require in order to compete on a level footing. What this now means is that whereas previously all participants were optimizing the vehicles themselves now a certain class of vehicle is able to not only optimize the vehicles but also the conditions in which they race, making for a pretty darn lopsided contest and numerous cries of foul play. Which is why I believe that highly modified sites should be disqualified from participating in all inclusive classes, they simply cant accommodate "comparable conditions"

I did read something about the race commission not wanting to get into aerodynamics debates but at the time I didn't bookmark it so I'm yanking out what little hair I have trying to find it again. I'm sure if there has already been a relevant ruling they will point it out to me.

Deal is that these are all excellent questions that deserve the attention of the race committee. At what point do you provide for the level playing field required by the rules when they say, in the very first rule, first sentence

 

Many speed records mean little. They do represent achievment, but they are apples and oranges comparisions. Who has the fastest track across the atlantic ? The purpose built boat who sits in the US until her weather routers observe a perfect weather pattern and off she blasts across the atlantic ? Or the ocean racer who leaves NY to schedule at 0800 July 4th ?



They both may establish a record, they both may achieve record runs....which is more valid ?

 

Boston, I`m aware of what you said with this :
"What makes me question this particular venue is that with no comparable improvements in technology on the kiters part what is it thats driving speeds to record breaking levels?"
It seems you interpret it differently to what I do.
Can you point me to any news article which shows that other serious contenders are querying the WSSRC representative`s evaluation of the conditions in which he ratified the new record ? Or is it just on this boat design forum where all the heat is being generated, mostly by sailors who rarely exceed 6knots ?

 

This, from Hydroptere`s website :

"The results of 2008 were extremely positive as l’Hydroptère improved her two speed records achieving:
· An average of 46.88 knots over 500 meters, new speed record in class D
· An average of 43.09 knots over one nautical mile (Outright Nautical Mile) in all classes

l’Hydroptère is also the first sailing boat to cross the 50-knot sailing speed barrier i.e. 92.6 km/h and then 100 km/h with a top speed at 56.3 knots (104 km/h) on 21st December.

2009 was dedicated to outright speed records. The Mediterranean record campaign was totally successful as l’Hydroptère achieved two world speed records that will be hard to exceed for the competitors (average speed of 51.36 knots over 500 meters on 4th September 2009 and above all 50.17 knots over one nautical mile on 8th November 2009) and showed the reliability and the efficiency of the concept.

I do find it interesting that you do not query Hydroptere`s gain of 4,48knots on the 500m, and a gain of 7,08 knots over the mile, yet you take issue with the kiters making a gain of 5,08knots (from 50,57knots - Alex C, to 55,65knots, Rob D). Is it because they just threw another million euros at it that makes it believable ?
If your posts were totally unbiased, perhaps your opinion could be taken seriously.

 

There is a fundamental difference. The combination of wind and sailing angle at the trench is very near kiteboard specific. The Mediterranean not very specific. This makes any location specific conditions hard to compare.

Granted, environment drives design. If the wind, water, and angle at the trench happen to be as near to ideal natural conditions as it is possible to find on the planet the 500M record is limited by the speed of the wind and the angle to the trench, hardly what an open record should be about.

It may very well be that other than the angle (that keeps sailboard speeds down) that there are no external factors in play at the trench. The sailboards will have to find a location with wind, water, and angle that suits them (that would probably make kiteboards uncompetitive) and so on. Looking at all the factors that make the trench so good is just a matter of increasing understanding of how external conditions (natural or otherwise) effect speed sailing. This should HELP everyone. Knowing the positive and negative effects of local features makes the search for any desired set of conditions easier for all speed sailing craft. Knowing is better than not knowing. Assuming that the the site modifications at the trench is the reasons records can be set there is just as silly as assuming that the modifications have no effect.

All I would like to see is a change to allow the same timing systems used by all. If that means killing GPS records and requiring shore based video timing it would be fair to all. Allowing the current $200 +/- GPS data recorders might require the standards to be re-written to GPS with WAAS or some other less than survey level accuracy. The GPS option is the better choice IMO.

R

 

Yeah, sure, until somebody learns how to tweak downloaded data successfully and create the figures they want by a signal specific radio hack... if they don't already have that capability.

There's a reasonable assurance that the US military already has the ability to jam and resend data downloads that are more advantageous to their strategic needs. Ghost signatures, electronic data scramble, the whole works. And that's not counting the technology spy capabilities of any good private firm that is hired by corporations to know what is going on with their competitors.

He who lives by the technology, can be jacked by the technology.

 

Okay then, use a survey chain, transits and guys with stopwatches. Just pick one system for all.

It is interesting that someone would immediately suspect efforts to cheat a GPS system. Is that an indicator that their first idea is to cheat if possible? Cheaters are the first to suspect it from others. Remind me to hold my cards very close indeed.

[yoda]Paranoid little you are?[/yoda]

 

I have as much invested in sailing speed records as you do (well slightly more maybe since I have a boat and a kite), that said I am not going to be trying for any speed records, therefore I am not 'nervous' about your questions, however from an engineering stand point they are bordering on ridiculous, a sand berm, and a small one at that is not going to have any effect on a kite on the end of 25m plus lines in 40kts+ wind. It has been mention by others that the berms may in fact be detrimental as they accelerate the airflow down onto the water creating chop (as this air is part of a turbulent boundary layer the flow will tend to stay attached quite well). Now with regard to rider drag increasing with speed, you do realise that this is the reason kites are going much deeper than anyone else, the run angle with a kite is a pretty delicate balance between excessive rider drag and apparent wind (on the kite).

 

The location is in fact very very special.

The thermal action of the desert sucks air in off of the Atlantic. There is a predictable pattern that delivers the strong wind along this coast like clockwork. There is a specific time of year that is perfect allowing them to schedule their event with confidence. It has a natural groove between hills that adds just a little more raw speed. The stretch is just long enough for the required run and it allows a good angle of attack. They have enough participants to make it worth it for organizers to handle the logistics such that it can be as hassle free as possible and reasonably priced for the competitors.

All of the above just add up to setting the stage. The fact is that they have had runs at good wind speeds for a number of years. The trick is that they are tweaking their equipment and improving their skill level. You will note that right now it has really been only a few contenders out of a crowd that seem to regularly post the top scores.

There is also something of a shots on goal factor. Even when conditions are good, a lot a runs are no good as the wind drops off just a little bit somewhere on the run. The more runs you make in good conditions, the more chances you have to nail a good one.

 

No, dude, I'm pretty damn far from paranoid. But since you brought it up and are looking for some way in your mind to "level the playing field" as you call it... going full tech on the thing will only create the opportunity for other systems to come into play. Right now, you guys have a serious piece of wood over a slot of water. I'm kinda pleasantly amused at the potential fuss you'll make when you discover that your precious signals are getting hacked and the whole thing has become a farce.

Learn this and keep it fresh in your heads... this is competition and as such, there is no end to how some folks will interpret the mission before them. If one is so naive as to think that free air signals can't be nabbed and made to do pretty much anything that the nabber would like, then you're simply asking for trouble. Geez, some folks might even find the spoiling enterprise to be one great big prank and do it just for the fun of it. You do recognize that potential, right?

And Randy, drop the ad hominem attacks. You can do much better than to stoop in that fashion. Perhaps you have way too much invested in the argument at this point and it looks to be affecting your typically considerate manners.

 

I'm sorry that you took it that way. It was my error. The post was not worthy of any response.

If you think I have anything invested in this thread you have not understood what I have posted. I must accept partial responsibility for the lack of communication. I would hope anyone else that thinks I have any interest in the outcome of who is fastest will say so.

I did question the trench. I have publicly stated that I have changed my mind.

I did ask the WSSRC a question or two about the rules. I will not share that private exchange here. I will say that if there is debate on the wording "comparable conditions" they will look to clarify the rule. What more can one ask?

I have repeatedly stated that I don't care if a kiteboard holds the speed record. I have pointed out that sailing mid 50 knot speeds in 40-45 knots of wind is not very efficient. I did not say it was slow. I have not questioned the record or the wind speed estimates provided in links from this thread. I take it on faith that these numbers are real.

I took note of the statements (dare I say complaints) that the kiteboarders are at a disadvantage because GPS timing is not available to them due to the size and weight of the units accepted by the WSSRC. While the kite faction was ranting, I took the time to see exactly how WSSRC uses GPS to ratify records and how other organizations do it. I looked at the GPS units they use. I found that sub $200 GPS data recorders have enough accuracy to verify speed records. I suggested that alternative and suggested that those that do have a vested interest lobby the WSSRC to change the rule and to allow these units for boardsailors. All in the interests of fair for all.

I don't have any qualms about making a statement like:
Compared to the Video Timing system, A GPS system is much less likely to be hacked or falsified. Anyone with a working understanding of GPS systems and the ratification process would agree.

It has been my life experience that those that would not cheat are surprised that others would. The reverse is also true, those that have no moral compass that keeps them from cheating see and suspect others of doing so. The reader is left to figure out who might take offence at that statement.

In 5 years posts of mine have contained the word cheat 6 times, 4 were quoted posts I was responding to. This post will be #7.

From Wiki

This post:

And this:

The US Military? Screwing with the GPS system to screw up a speed sailing run? Are you serious? Do you think a local hack would not show up during the ratification process?

That sounds paranoid to me.

 

I am not so sure that hacking a GPS externally is that likely in an open competition setting. Note that Weymouth went with GT31 GPS units in their most recent event.

If someone does 500 meters in a record time using reasonable and verifiable measurement technology that does not meet WSSRC rules, it will both tarnish the record (who wants to be the official record holder when everyone knows someone else is faster) and it would provide leverage for getting better rules. The WSSRC know this and tries to adapt, but they need to go slow and make that they do not ratify a record that can later shown to be invalid.

At any event where there is a real shot of a record, the organizer is kind of obligated to at least try to meet the rules so as to not do a disservice to the competitors.

Having both a timed course and GPS units could be an option. The GPS units could benchmarked against the timed course. The GPS units could then be used for both picking the best 500 meter stretch out of a run and they could be used for "secondary courses" and/or runs at non-standard angles that put part of the run farther away from the shore.

 

not much worthy of response but obviously its possible to advantageously modify the berm and the water to a particular type of vehicle. Are you now saying that no attempt was made to modify the berm to favor riding conditions and that the chop killers purpose is not to groom the water in order that people might go faster or that the course was not specifically designed for kiters?

cheers
B