Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

I can show you 60 feet 200 feet from shore ...
The shore goes up at the same slope however ...

 

I must correct myself again, If BOR 90 ran with windward rudder and dagger board retracted, then the beam of the boat is wide enough such that depth at the distance offshore to the boat does not matter, it would be distance to the leeward side of the boat.

I just have a little problem of scale and context when boats start approaching the size of a small house.

 

not sure what that last is but all in all the suggestion of a distance off shore requirement based on max beam is a pretty good idea that should help eliminate some of the present inequities in the rule interpretations. What we really need is to fire off a few letters to the ruling committee and see about getting this thing back to where it was intended to be. The use of these external speed enhancing devices and constructs is something that is leading many readers to use comments like cheating and "that doesn't seem right" in reference to these venues. Rules 1,7 and 9 all seem to have been forgotten at places like Luderitz

Around here we have a lot of bike racers and most of them scoff at this particular bicycle record and for good reason.


cheers
B

 

Your observation does reflect most locations that get deep quick. There are exceptions. I grew up near a lake where the ground smoothly tapered down to the waters edge, but there was an underwater limestone cliff that dropped 20'. Sometimes the top of the cliff was 2' deep, sometimes it was just exposed.

But wait, the lake was made by the US Corps of Engineers. Therefore the edge was not "natural". Oh my goodness, I guess the lake would never qualify as an acceptable location.

 

I grew up on Cape Cod in a little town called Fairhaven just this side of "the bridge" and Brewser flats is a completely natural venue that goes for miles and is all of about 8' deep at high tide and 6" at low tide. There is a beautiful drop off at the outer edge and its full of channels that are great do dive in if your into scuba, seems like it would be almost perfect for both shallow water, clean wind, and a fair course for all concerned.

 

B

A ratio based rule starts to come closer, but the rule needs to be based on values that have a valid techical basis.

For example, show me a class of boats that can not run at 10x beam width before you demand 100x.

 

Actually the rules need to be based on providing a level playing field for all as specifically stated in rule 1. The idea is to level the playing field and not to dictate how to sail also specifically mentioned in rule 1, so removing the possibility of land masses altered or not, potentially contributing to air dynamics that favor one type of vehicle over another is a prime consideration in the distance requirement

 

Hey Doug, how about we talk about the Hydroptere performance for a while (you know - the topic).

I was reviewing the record run video and noted something I missed my first couple of dozen viewings.

In the world of speedsailing boats, foil ventilation or cavitation (two different but similar issues), has probably been the biggest barrier to increased speeds. The foil surface in discussion can be a surface piercing hydrofoil, a dagger board, or even a rudder.

When I was looking at the 10 sec-25 sec range of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ-gdqo35os you can really see what is going on under the surface near the leeward foil. It looks like they are getting a lot of ventilation, but it is occurring just behind and above the foil instead of at the foil surface. When the flashes of white come & go, I do not see any boat motion indicating a big loss of lift from the ventilation. I am wondering if the separation of the ventilation from the foil makes it OK, or if they are actually transitioning into something close to super-cavitation?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR_1hNrtL8U&feature=related

this guy had an interesting day

and this one ya just have to wonder if its for real or not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snvkHSsJu5w&feature=related

 

how about if the distance from shore is not the rule base but instead a distance from land or sea features over x height off the water surface within x distance that way the issue of artificially enhancing wind by land based or water based features is the proper target of the rule and not how close one actually is to land

 

Generally being close to real land is just going to cause turbulence and lower wind speeds near the surface. This is usually a pretty big disadvantage. Kiters have a little bit of a natural advantage with respect to getting power from higher up where wind is not so messy. This is not artificial, it is just a benefit of the way they run. The price they pay for putting the kite up off of the surface is the air drag they get on the control lines.

Since running close to typical land is usually bad for the wind, most natural venues have been places where there is either just a low lying strip upwind (Weymouth), or where the land smoothly slopes gently down to the edge (Walvis Bay / Sandy Point).

The way that land messes with the air really makes for a big advantage if you can run further off shore (Hydroptere). It opens up a lot more choices where all you have to look for is good strong steady winds with some amount of sheltering such that you are in chop (not swells).

This advantage has not been used by many competitors for one simple reason. The only proven answer to running fast in chop is size. The simple answer to size is a megabuck sponsor. There are just not enough of these sponsors looking for sailors to give their money to.

Getting around artificial concerns on the wind should be easy. The guys that run the event do not want anything to undermine what they are doing.

It would feel better if the record was not from a run in a trench. I went out on Google maps and tried to look at the actual beach where they run (they call it second lagoon). I think it is the beach just East and South of Diaz Point. Their web site indicates prevailing wind from West to East. This gives them the offshore wind seen in the videos. That beach does not look all that great for straight 500 meter runs with good wind angles and where the minimum depth comes into play for the full run.

It is kind of ironic that wind surfers and kites are the big reason why the course length needs to be 500 meters, but they actually suffer as much or more than anyone in finding good 500 meter locations. If rules to avoid the sling shot stuff could be developed, better GPS rules implemented and the course reduced to 100 meters, the kiters would probably already be close to 60 kts without any trenching.

 

I was thinking more that the fluid dynamics ( same as aerodynamics ) of moving air over a berm would favor the kites basic configuration specifically because of the reasons you mention. If you look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvhrtCpRqZg&NR=1

actually being closer in to an obstacle offers some obvious advantages to the kite configuration

you can clearly see that the wind velocity is accelerated by the obstacle as it carries down and behind the obstacle ( in this case a car, but in the case of Luderitz a berm ). The "dirty" air ( behind the obstacle and just under the accelerated air ) is easier to break ( drafting in this dirty air benefits the rider ) and if you notice in the Luderitz videos the riders are trying to keep as close to the berm as possible and there kites down into the area of accelerated air just off the berm or fence ( depends, lagoon or ditch ) the fact that the kites are flying at some distance from the rider allows for an easier "grab" at these artificially generated wind conditions. Obviously is much easier to artificially generate conditions particularly favorable to the kites in these manufactured venues. The fact that so many records are coming out of this particular venue is testimony that this scenario offers the unfair advantage I've been trying to point out for quite some time now.

if you look the rules are clear on this
"shall be propelled by the natural action of the wind:" rule 8
deliberately altering the wind prior to its influence on the race vehicle is in direct opposition to this ruling

Comparable conditions must include clean wind and by externally altering the wind to favor a particular type of arraignment the venue has IMHO broken not only the spirit of the rules but also the letter as well

I did find some interesting video's of the site just as you suggested I would

the only way to ensure that the wind configuration is comparable in all venues is to legislate better rules that actually provide for the stipulation of comparable conditions in rule 1. As it stands although the kites are demonstrably slower in open water were everyone must deal with the same conditions they dominate when conditions are altered specifically in there favor. Which again does not represent comparable conditions

 

"if a reasonable distance from shore line and obstructions can be agreed on then modification of the shore line will become a thing of the past and a whole new range of contenders will enter the fray as a significantly greater number of venues will open up, These offering comparable conditions. The clarifications of the rules would serve to enhance the sport and widen the range of competing contenders. Obviously at present the vague nature and loose interpretation of the rules is limiting successful attempts to certain types of small vehicles. The objective of the rules should not be to limit the type of craft competing "

I think changing the rules to make the (suggested)250ft from shore would unfairly disallow kiters, windsurfers and small boats from being meaningful contenders, which might be the goal of some, but I don`t think it will create more interest in speedsailing.
Let`s face it, speedsailing would have very little interest without the kiters and sailboards involvement. MI set the record (as YP) many years ago, and then sat on it without trying to improve it for what, ten years ? How does this further speedsailing ?

I also think all this talk of comparable conditions is being read out of context by those who still claim Hydroptere to the the world`s fastest sailboat - All previous attempts BEFORE Hydroptere have been made in similar conditions, being flat, shallow water states, of course windstrengths are vastly different between sailboard & kite attempts vs MI attempts, yet I don`t believe that the MI team would have argued that their record was not broken by Finian Maynard when he set the new record in 50knots of wind in a trench.
How far would you like to take this ? the record must be attempted in similar conditions could imply a minimum and maximum windstrength, where would you start, and how would this not include only a narrow range of designed craft ?
As a matter of interest, the French canal was created by a team of windsurfers and remained their exclusive playground, which is why Dunkerbeck and Albeau never had a go at the record there - they were not allowed to sail there by the owners of the course.
The kiters have created a best-for-them course, although they could do with more run-up and run-off. They could run at Walvis Bay which is natural and where Sailrocket ran, but the wind angle is too square for them, while being good for sailrocket. Should this venue be banned as it allows sailrocket to run in 3ft deep water, but the kiters would have to sail out away from the shore to get the best wind angle for them ? Should Sandy point be disallowed because Hydroptere can`t run there ?
Or should everyone just acknowledge that Hydroptere chose their design parameters in full knowledge that they would have to sail in deeper water with chop while their competitors could make use of an "unfair advantage", which was known to them before they designed their boat ?

I do agree that a man-made fence or berm should be disallowed to prevent any percieved benefit, real or imaginary.

 

Hi Steve and welcome to the discussion
I'd be one pissed off camper if someone told me that a venue that held tittle to a international record was not open to international contenders. Although I do bounce part time ( just for fun ) at a few local clubs and if they ejected him for a reason then thats his own stupid fault.

Ya I think I'm starting to make my point to even some of the dissenters about the berms and the chop killer unfairly modifying the wind and water from its natural state, the rules do specify "natural wind" "powered only by" and clearly these enhancements modify the "natural wind"

I dont think any of us are trying to get the kites banned but instead a venue that has obviously modified the conditions beyond what I at least think should be allowed.

the other item ( I mentioned earlier ) that I'm not feeling is in compliance is this wave cancellation system they have for the trench

They aren't even trying to hide that the modifications they made to the site have significant effects in altering the natural wind and water conditions

from http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2365976

its pretty obvious they intended to artificially add potential speed to the sites dynamics and create conditions unique to this location whereas the rules specify "comparable conditions" for all contenders regardless of what continent they might be on.

seems pretty unfair to people constrained to run at other sites and in "incomparable conditions" to me

 

Hi Boston,
I think you missed my main point, that Hydroptere DESIGNED their craft to run in conditions DISSIMILAR to what other were doing, in so doing THEY EXCLUDED THEMSELVES from competing at venues such as Sandy Point, Walvis Bay and Luderitz. To ask the WSSRC to change the rules to allow them all to compete in the same or similar conditions in light of this, I feel, is not what speedsailing should be about. Next we will have the Groupama support group lobbying the WSSRC to amend the rules so that records can only be set 500nm from shore, and only if the swell exceeds 6m in height. Hydroptere, MI and Sailrocket would be more than welcome to run in the ditch at Luderitz, I`m sure, if they could work out the logistics of making that happen. Longshot as it is could run at Luderitz, but I think they would not be able to stop within the run-off - kitesurfers and windsurfers have the unenviable ability to get off at speed and use their flailing limbs to slow them down, and if that fails then they can body-drag across the sandbanks. Sure, they break limbs, but then it`s cheaper than destroying the boat