fast cats

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by wannabeboater, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. rayaldridge
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    rayaldridge Senior Member

    I think he was joking, or at least I hope so. But, Chris White's Atlantic 42 is within his budget.


    It doesn't have those heat-trap windows on the pilothouse.
  2. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Manie B Senior Member



    you cant draw - and you dont know what you want
  3. wannabeboater
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    wannabeboater Junior Member

    Thanks manie, i didn't think i was that bad.
    And i have came down to a couple of boats. this thread was for opinions on boats, not discriminating.
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Straight vertical is different ray..........

    Ok at least we have a rough idea about the budget now! The Lagoon cats at aroung the 44ft are in that ballpark too and they have really vertical windows. The boat shown above has´nt!
    I was told by our wannabeboater that he is familiar with ambient temperatures of about 90° F.

    My reply:

    >>>I guess you are less familiar with 140°F ? Thats the temperature in the salon area after some 2-3 hrs of direct sun on those windows in the tropics! The AC unit to cool that down to a liveable temp. can easily be around 50.000 btu running almost continously! Clear?
    And btw. nobody stands a heatload without noticeable fatigue, but fatigue is one of the most common sources of severe troubles at sea.<<<

    Here we have again a typical example why our industry is producing so much crap.
    Not meant to offend you wannabe.;)
    The average buyer has no idea what he wants. He has seen some pictures and some boats, has heard some stories and some speech and now has a broad idea what would be the best for him, or better, he has a preconception.
    Next he contacts dealers, where he gets fed with more preconceptions and marketing blabla. At the end he buys a boat (does´nt matter which one, all are the wrong ones). That is the one he liked the appearance best, nothing else.
    Never in his odyssee one came up and asked him for the real requirements, the real load, real cruising grounds, the time he "in fact" spends aboard, etc. etc.!
    The book of requirements was never written, and with no one to ask him the right questions he was unable to write it himself. He could not know his requirements exactly (or how to refine them, in balance with boatbuilding restrictions, a budget and demands), so, the styling departement has won the race, his bank is happy and the sailing community soon has another low priced boat to choose from.
    This procedure has to be repeated several times until real life has tought our poor victim what he really wants, and how to achieve this! Now he buys his sixth boat (a capable, seagoing vessel, slow but safe and comfortable) and the industry is fine on the profit the other five brought out.

    Lay back mate, dream your dream, then contact a skilled builder, honest NA or at least a very old bluewater sailor and try to bring your requirements on a napkin!

    Then choose a boat......................................................

  5. wannabeboater
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    wannabeboater Junior Member

    Thank you Apex, i've thought it over, and now think it's foolish just for the looks. I do like the lagoon 44 and might even be able to find a 50 in the range, i understand how the vertical windows help and like to be able to see so much around. I know thats based on looks, but do any of you have a lagoon, and you could vouge for the company? i'm researching it, but id really like an experienced sailors opinion.
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Do´nt get me wrong here! I would´nt talk you into the Lagoon Cat´s! I have just shown two examples of well designed boats (and the difference 6ft make!).
    The builder (Beneteau) is one of the largest in the world, so at least some sort of quality standard is given. Due to the fact that the French are the most enthusiastic Cat lovers in the world, they have some national competence (and competition) too.
    But we continue to share the fur!

    First we have to know where the forest is...........Requirements
    Than we have to know if there is a bear..............cost
    We have to find a
    We have to shoot the bear...............................material
    than we can return here to share the fur!!!..........yard


  7. wannabeboater
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    wannabeboater Junior Member

    Requirements:35ft+, preferably 4 staterooms i'll settle with 3 and 2 heads. i'd like the kitchen on the bridgedeck.
    Cost: The price is 500,000 firm.
    Design, has to be seaworthy speed is a plus but safety is over speed. I'd like it to have a good amount of outdoor space for family.
    Material: fiberglass preffered, but no wood.
  8. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Apex, You also brought me back to some semblance of common sense and I am reminded of other posts where I have suggested something along the lines - - Firstly, Where are you likely to cruise? - - - Is shallow draft important (hide up a creek amongst the mangroves during a severe storm season)? - - - Is it important to be able to stay in a marina (beam and length considerations will restrict size)? - - Are you happy to anchor in the shallows (cat/tri) of sheltered bays (inshore of all the myriad mono's requiring 6 ~10 ft of water)? Do you plan making major passages? Are you prepared to wait till a "window of opportunity" opens to allow an easy run, or are time limited so must go when you declare? Are you prepared to island hop in short easy stages, following a circuitous route of fair weather and seasonality? What is your style of cruising? - To do the major passages, or "gunkhole" and explore almost every bay and estuary?

    Answering all these questions and more will help determine the type of boat you need to achieve your way of life.... That is how I made my choice... My cruising interests include exploring the coast of Australia between Brisbane in the East around the top end to Geraldton in the West as well as Melanesian Islands and down to NZ possibly... Mostly in short and easy day passages where possible, but with a capacity to do a 10 day passage in the "window of opportunity" of assured fair weather, else the long way round in season...

    Other factors include, are you a collector of stuff to store on your boat - If so then most likely a cat is out as performance is severely inhibited by weight, and it may be best to acquire a design that is amenable to carrying lots of stuff - like a heavy displacement mono - A variation of the traditional Chinese junk has been used by several cruisers - The best I saw was an 70? year old American/Canadian lady who carried an extensive library of books (about 2000kg or more) with a "magic hippy mural" across the stern:D:D. - She ran (was) the Pacific & Islands HF net in the late 70's to early 80's...

    These are GENERALITIES and can be adjusted within some designs but... Boat design is a compromise between several competing and exclusive criteria, LOA is determined by a need to access marinas = shorter... seakindliness and potential "speed" demands more length... comfort and load carrying = +beam and draft, - hide up a creek excludes draft, - berth up in a marina limits beam... and so the list goes on... It is cheaper if you can accept an existing design, KNOWING its limitations and advantages... As has been mentioned in this thread several times - Go out and charter several different styles of boat, as experience increases make yourself available as delivery crew (often no pay, fully found on board and cheapest return fares paid back to start point), and that may broaden your experience in areas where chartering is not available... - Then come back and ask additional questions...

    Wood and grp go well together, do not knock wood of the build materials list... Reduce complexity 2 heads are not necessary and a burden on otherwise useful capacity, berths instead of "staterooms" it is a f*&^% boat for goodness sake not a gin palace or 5 star + hotel (or am I mistaken here?) in 35 ft? you jest surely, galley up is "nice and friendly for the cook - or convenient in solo sailing? but does restrict social space for "sundowners".... Seaworthy where? - I would be very reluctant to do an open-waters-long-passage in a 35' cat, but sheltered waters island hopping - depending on design... If you have the cash in US$ then a 40' something Beneteau Lagoon may be worthy of a look - second hand there are quite a few have a look here (click on <boats for sale> <used boats> and use the length / categories to browse through (I think there is a currency converter too)... There must be several hubs of boats for sale in USA?
  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Thats a whishlist, or a broad boatdescription. And why not wood? In most cases when it comes to affordable leightweight builds the by far best coice! Be open minded!

    Ok, I said I do´nt like to do that online. I will not reply on any comment of the naysayers, armchairsailors, or biased to one design guys.

    1-- how many people max. for weekend cruising ? Overnight?
    2-- how many Adults / children on passages? Age of children?
    3-- children have to be taught aboard? Internet access at sea?
    4-- toys (sailboards, watercraft) for children?

    5-- longest passages planned, area and duration?
    6-- "home" cruising area?
    7-- high latitude cruising to be likely? in % of time
    8-- tropical criusing grounds to be likely? in % of time
    9-- "real cooking" required or US food on average? The latter means deep freeze and microwave of sufficient size but galley is decoration.
    10- gas or electric cooking?
    11- toilet and shower en suite?
    12- watermaker/s ? sufficient, comfortable, opulent?
    13- entertainment system/s ? same as above...

    14- tender/s? Rib, inflatable, outboard, rowing, sail?
    15- engines? sufficient to opulent? The less skilled the crew, the more u use them!
    16- generator ship? or battery ship? Photovoltaic planned?
    17- marina useage? quite often, or more sitting at anchor?

    Just 17 of about 150 points I would discuss with a client before the first sketch is made! During such discussion (which cannot be done properly by mail), you come closer and closer to a final design. But, of course there are many many trade offs during that so named design spiral! Many wishes have to be sacrificed, some dreams will not come true.

    So, whether you buy or build, this process of finding and outsourcing your requirements is the same. At the end you have a boat thats fits you to some extend (never a perfect one). The material of choice can be part of such spiral (and usually is), but thats at the end.

    You might be surprised but it´s true, I have seen several prospective owners coming with a "demand" of a performance sailor, leaving (happy) with a displacent motorcruiser. (not to talk you into another sort of biased opinion)


    Mas and Stu: you type too fast for me!
    1 person likes this.
  10. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Whhhaaaat? :D:D:D My paragraph was started your post arrived, and first part was uploaded thence corrections and additions for another half hour? so 45+ minutes to type that? ??? :D:D:D all praise gleefully accepted... Your reasoned presentation is more worthy of praise...
  11. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    build a cat, are you stark raving:))
    as I said I spent weeks down in BVI loking for an import opp, cats where not for sale then
    the 50 foot monos ddi not have the fuel or water to get to the nearest Pacific Island
    you could make money on some of these
  12. wannabeboater
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    wannabeboater Junior Member

    1.Weekend cruising would be 10 overnight 8 at the most.
    2.On Passages 2 adults 3 children 7,9,13
    3. Yes, we would have an online school, and also have backup text.
    4. Depending on the trip, crossing the sea, no. But we would have a dingy and 2-3 kayaks
    5. Longest passage would be Atlantic, and i'm not sure how the trips go but i'd like to hug the coast until i can cross to aus.
    6. ocean, atlantic, gulf of mexico (shallow) and the carribean
    7-8. No, high latitude, and tons of tropic.
    9. Actual cooking, i need a galley big enough to cook meals with a couple of sides.
    10. Electric cooking, i will place solar panels, and probably have a generator on board
    11.I dont need it in a suite but close would be nice.
    12.Watermaker, yes, and not opulent but comftorable.
    13.I would have a flatscreen tv and movies on the bridgedeck and laptops for each one of us (5)
    14.I would have a dhingy with an engine and paddles, as i said earlier, there would also be an inflatable kayak.
    15. There would be engines, but just medium fuel efficient ones, i would use in ports/docking and when needed.
    16. I believe i already answered i would have a generator?
    17.barely any marina useage, mostly at anchor.
    Hope that helps =]
  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

  14. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

  15. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    A big cheap second hand mono sail or power running in "displacement mode" only and maybe a staysail of so, or cut down on the need to run a hotel/motel ..... and have so many domestics and learn to make well of less... end for me...
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