Ergonomics - Stairs on Boats

Where can I get “FREE” drawings and information on boat ergonomics?

I’m trying to draw something up for the fun of it. One of the issues is going down into the control cabin, which is a half level below the deck. That's right, the cockpit floor is below the deck. It is 3-feet (1-Meter) below to be exact. I know most control cabin’s are above not below deck level, I’m thinking this could turn out to be important later on.

The ergonomics of small boats and yachts is a challenging and curious thing for me. My background is that I'm an architect, a land lover who must often deal with barrier free and the ADA (American Disabilities Act).

Throwing that all out for a moment, no code just what works, I find boat stairs, doors, galleys and toilet facilities to be awkward, kids tree house like.

Add to the steepness, the narrowness, lack of headroom and the fact that it's all heaving and moving about on the water and I'm just astonished any of it functions without a mutiny happening. I guess it beats trying to put your bodily fluids into a coffee can while people wait for you to do your business, right?

Where can I get “FREE” drawings and information on boat ergonomics? I have AutoCad LT 2002 (not 3D), so I might be limited to the simple stuff to start off.

 

its been done

let me find the dxf file. 46 foot cougar military. And then theres the Carver Santego series, Searay had a 44 with a minor variation of the theme also

 

Those would be perfect examples; I forgot to mention that my paper design (have static foam model too) is supposed to be 44 feet long, 8-foot wide pilot house/cabin/control area (by about twice as long). Four person crew, galley, head, sleeping area, and pilot with co-pilot. Remote controlled gatling gun on bow deck, two machine gun turrets up through roof of cabin area.

I purchased a model like this to help me:


Although this is closer:
http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/museum/ACVSK-5.htm

 

Likewise, I mean architect and love the complexity of boat ergonomics.

I guess each kind of boat (military, fishing, pleasure) has a slightly different approach, but a thing that is common is that you move yourself (in the sea) not only with your legs, but also with your arms (hands) and that is relevant to the ergonomics.

Other thing is that the way you move in a small (44ftboat) is completely different from the way you move in a house (even at port) and that also changes ergonomics.

I am designing the interior of a boat (my second one) and I get information on ergonomics from different sources: looking at the way things were sorted out on my own boat, observing closely (in big boat shows) the interior and ergonomics of interesting boats and looking at the drawings (cuts) of lots of boats. Sometimes I import them to autocad and scale them.

You are going to find that there are no rules, lots of different approaches.
You can find out what works well going inside a boat and moving around, and sometimes you get surprised with good solutions that you would never consider as appropriated.

. With houses I work with a 5 cm tolerance. On boats, I work with 0,5cm tolerance.

 

Good point, and thanks for the other tips too.

 

I found some nice drawings on the Tanton Yachts gallery.

Link:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=9830

Does anyone have something more detailed for me yet?

 

You should post "Imagiro 28" on the "Call me stupid thread". That thread is about Small motorsailers.

I thought you were only interested in military craft.
I am interested basically in cruising sailboats between 40 and 50 ft. From these I have some information (designs) on my data bank. If you are interested in something in particular that fits this criteria, send me a message, maybe I can help with some designs that will give some clues about boat ergonomics.

 

Ergonomics is Ergonomics, might get more of a difference designing for tall and fat modern Americans - people were smaller in the old days too.

In general what I've read (Liang/Bliaut book) the differences between civilian craft and military craft is they add additional features to miltary craft:

1. Trips/ missions measured in days, not hours as in commercial craft.

2. Need for various speeds of operation, where commercial craft are more of constant speed crusiers.

3. Long peroids of the hovercraft in displacement mode (waiting) and not just in hover-mode.

These differences apply to boats, airplanes and trucks too.

 

this is an interesting thread -

i was intruiged by the wally 80s, and their open 'loft-like' main cabin layout. Ive been looking for a somewhat smaller 40-60 ft sailboat that could be modified to better suit someone in a manual wheelchair (para vs quadra). Aside from the open layout of the wally's cabin, the deck layout, with all the pricey hydraulics, is uncluttered, and ona single plane. It would be a welcome change for a chair-bound person to have the freedom to roll around unhindered above and below decks. Of course, getting between the two would be a challange.

Below decks, I would think that rather than having multiple berths, perhaps a large living area/kitchen and a seperate sleeping quarter would be the simplest solution. While the wallys have several berths(probably a function of 80ft and $$$) i dont envision needing more than one permanent bed,a nd perhaps some convertable sleeping areas.

jsut some rambling thoughts...

 

I am not a big fan of cats, but they sure offer a lot of advantages to a sailor on a wheel chair. They heel a lot less and they have also less differences in height between deck and interior. They would be a lot easier to adapt.
I guess that in your case I would say that a cat suits you better. Have you considered one?

 

Someone (in this forum) said that the most difficult boats to design were motorsailors. I would say that small deck saloons are as complicated as motorsailors. Take a look at this one. There are a lot of stairs and the interior is very well sorted out. It works (I have been inside of one of those)
(Courtesy of yacht magazine)

 

good point about the cats. Ive never been on one, but there was a good article in yachting a few months ago on a couple forty footers - very sharp. I dont want to high-jack the thread, but designing a a boat with a wheelchair-ed skipper in mind is an interesting challenge.

 

As you said, ergonomics is ergonomics. Get a book on ergonomics and use it as a guide. Seats still have to be so wide, so high and so on. Steps have to be so far apart, ladders so wide, etc. Both a small and a large person have to be able to get their shoulders through a hatch or door. If you put a hatch in the cabin top or deck it has to be so wide for an average adult to climb through it. Frankly I use an old book I have had for years on mechanical drawing (drafting) that has diagrams showing average human dimensions standing, sitting, lying down, etc. It works. But someone also said we have gotten bigger and that's true too.

Boats are designed a certain way because of some rules of thumb. Galleys are generally near the companion way so, 1. there is lots of ventilation, and 2. the cook can hand the food directly out to those in the cockpit. The same is true of navigation stations. On sailboats they are usually just at the bottom of the companion way so the navigator has immediate access to the cockpit. The bigger the boat gets the less these things are true. Why are aft cabins so popular? because it's an efficient use of space on a boat that's big enough for an aft cabin, and the boat rides better there than the berth in the bow. These are just examples of why things are done a certain way.

Engine placement is the same. Engines on planing boats are placed as far aft as possible to move the center of gravity as far aft as possible, and to also move the center of pressure of the planing surface farther aft. This reduces the wetted surface on plane and reduces resistance. On displacement boats it's just the opposite. The engine is moved forward to achieve a better weight distribution and fore and aft trim. Having the weight in the ends of a displacement boat, whether sail or power, creates a wetter ride, buries the bow a lot and it just doesn't rise to the sea very well. Putting the weight in the middle, lengthwise, lightens the ends and they rise easier to a sea and make the boat drier. Also the middle generally means the engine can be mounted lower in the boat, lowering the CG and allowing less of an angle on the drive shaft.

What I'm saying here is that innovation is fine if it works and doesn't take you backwards. Analyze what the affect will be of what you want to do. Build a model. Have others look at it. Thinking out of the box is great but, make sure you know why it's done the other way first because often after you build a boat it's damn hard to change the design, especially the hull shape.

I can give examples of designs that were built and didn't work. They seemed like good ideas but they ended up being just plain dangerous. Think it through and do your research. If everything looks ok then go for it.

 

Wise words to live by.

You would of made a fine architect (land lover kind).

Thanks for the added perspective.

My static (non working mock-up) foam model is 3/4" = 1'-0" and is still too small for the level of detail I want to explore/experience. The actual size of the model is almost three feet long, a foamcore cutout of a person is five inches tall.

Now that I think about it, I can cut it down it's length at my father in-laws on his ban saw. Then put some dowels in it to hold it together. This way I can build the interior (or at least one half of it) and learn more than I could from the earlier section drawings I did on graph paper. The scale would then be large enough.

My other option would be to just build half the cabin at a larger scale using balsa and bass wood. Maybe I could use some of those wooden ergonomic people and make it more of a presentation model.

I much prefer to do rough study models which aid the design process than finished models which inhibit changes and experimentation. Time and money, we will see.

Question-1: The ship ladders or stairs shown in the boat section drawings, do you go up and down them always facing the stairs? Or can you go down the stairs like you would in a house? I know some guys in construction that go down ladders like they were stairs (back/butt facing the rungs), but us common folk like to be more careful, looking where we are going.

Question-2: Is aggressive anti-slip texture more dangerous if you should fall and slip? Is there any kind of boat building codes which cover this or apply some kind of standard?

 

Thanks. Oddly enough, About 30 years ago I did the plans for a home. Nothing elaborate. a simple ranch style, one story house with a basement.

Anyway. Whether or not you go up or down facing the ladder, or facing away depends on the height of the ladder and the angle it's at (rise over run). If it's only a few steps you go down facing away, if more, facing it. If you think about it, you always go up facing the ladder or stairs. Make sure you put handholds close by to give them something to hang onto.

As for the non skid. The type you show is not generally used except on stairs. It would work on a ladder or stairway. If you fall on it it's pretty nasty. Generally what is used is diamond plate, or a adhesive type non skid that looks a lot like sandpaper and is just stuck to a clean surface. Also, you can mix grit, (I've seen sand blasting grit used, but there is grit you can buy) in paint or varnish and paint it on. There are many solutions on the market. Bare teak is pretty good all by itself as a non skid.

Any way good luck with your project.